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Surgery before or after?

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    Posted: Jun 17 2009 at 4:35pm
Hi all, just my 2nd or 3rd post here as I find myself reading more than anything.
 
As I mentioned before, my mother is TNBC, I don't know all the finite details, but know the tumour was relatively small, no nodes. She had a lumpectomy, followed by chemo ( which ended this week, yay), and then onto radiation.
 
My co-workers mother in law has breast cancer as well, but not sure if she is TNBC or not. She is undergoing chemo first, then having the tumour removed.
 
Is there a reason some tumours are removed before rather than after?, or vice versa?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mefowler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 17 2009 at 5:38pm
Dear Spiderman,
 
Chemotherapy before surgery (also called neoadjuvant chemotherapy) is a fairly new development in the treatment of smaller tumors.  In the past, it was used for large tumors to shrink them and sometimes enable the surgeon to do a lumpectpmy rather than a mastectomy,  It was also used for metastatic tumors, since if a tumor has metastasized, the most important objective is a treatment that will potentially reach every cancer cell in the body, and it does not make sense to wait until after surgery and subsequent healing before treating the metastatic cancer.
 
In April 2008, MD Anderson published a study in which it was recommended that patients with TNBC should have neoadjuvant chemotherapy rather than adjuvant (post-surgical) chemotherapy.  The reasons given for this are that, first, neoadjuvant chemotherapy allows the tumor response to be assessed so that chemotherapy can be changed if necessary, and second, that neoadjuvant chemotherapy decreases the risk of lymph node metastases, since these are hopefully eliminated by the systemic chemotherapy.
 
There are many oncologists who reply that overall outcome is the same for neadjuvant and adjuvant chemotherapy, so either method is fine.  That is true, in a way.  You see, TNBC has an overall five-year survival of 80%.  Most recurrences will occur in the first three (some say three to five) years.  However persons who are treated with neoadjuvant chemotherapy can be assessed at the time of surgery, and if there is no invasive cancer remaining at that time, they are considered to have had a pathologic complete response (no invasive cancer on the pathology report), and those people have a 5-year survival of 95%.  Those who do not have a complete response to neoadjuvant chemotherapy have a 5-year survival of 68%.  This averages out to 80%.  Oncologists hope that, in the future, observing the response to chemotherapy will enable them to tailor chemotherapy to the individual patient and increase overall survival.  There are of course other considerations.  Some people cannot tolerate the uncertainty of having a cancer in their body during chemotherapy due to anxiety or simply that they believe that their best chance is removal of the tumor.  And there have been cases of breast cancers progressing on neoadjuvant chemotherapy and even what appears to be lymph node metastases that occurred during chemotherapy.  For myself, I wanted to know whether my chemo was working or not, and I wanted a chance at that 95% 5-year survival.  I personally would rather know the worst because it allows me to make my decisions based on more data.
 
Anyway, there is not necessarily a right or a wrong way, but ideally all patients would be given the option of choosing which one they receive.
 
Maire
53 yo, dx'd 11/08 at 51, 2.9 cm IDC, node-neg, neoadj chemotx with Taxotere/carboplatin q3wks x 6, lumpectomy 4/09, path showed pCR, margin reexcision 5/09, rad'n 6-8/09, intermittent Tarceva, dc'd
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nell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 17 2009 at 5:39pm
Hello, I have read somewhere that certain types of cancer have chemotherapy ahead of surgery to help shrink the tumor ahead of time.  Not quite sure of all the reasons, but some tumors are odd shapes or tentacles etc and so if going with lumpectomy it would be difficult to carve out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 17 2009 at 5:40pm
Too funny I posted my tiny little answer at the same time, thanks for the information that is really interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alison41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 3:10am

Dear spiderman

I had neoadjuvant chemo because my tumour was initially 5cm, and I did not know that I have one lymph node involved.  I finished my chemo on 8 April 09 which consisted of 4 fec and 4 taxotere, had surgery 26 May 09 and when the histology was done the cancer had not spread beyond the one lymph node and there was only a 2mm residual of tumour left which would not had been picked up on the mri I had in march 09.
 
My Drs agree that this is no a significant amount of tumour.  I am also having radiothereapy as a matter of course.
 
For the the neoadjuvant chemo worked and my cancer responded to it.
 
Ali
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabatha00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 5:06am
Maire, THANK YOU for posting that information because I am having chemo before surgery and my tumor was 2.2 cm.   I had it removed during an excisional biopsy but the first surgeon left positive margins because he knew I wanted a mastectomy.   From the reading that I have done (which I hate to do because it scares me to death) most people have chemo before to SHRINK a tumor.   My tumor is OUT and was wondering why I was having chemo before.   I am 37 and have had a CT w/contrast, bone scan, mammos, and ultrasound of my axilla nodes which they said looked normal.  I go on Tuesday to have a breast MRI just so they can be sure there is nothing in the other breast they need to monitor.   I feel that breast is fine but I can understand them being cautious!   I WANT them to be but all the tests scare the bejeebers out of me and my anxiety level gets pretty dang high sometimes (thank you Xanax).  
 
I will be starting chemo in about 2 weeks and from what I understand it will be dose dense, ACT for 9 treatments.   Nobody has said anything about radiation so I'm not sure if I'll have to have that or not.   I'll also be having double mastectomies.  
 
THANK YOU again for posting that information as it finally answers some of my questions.  
 
Tabatha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NINASUZIE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 3:33pm
Tabatha,
 
Gee, seems like you got the best of both before/after surgery chemo options.  good to hear you have positive margins and are ready for chemo soon! 
 
I am curious how they decided on 9 cycles of ACT.  I have heard 6 cycles frequently.  Or did I misunderstand?  Best to you in the weeks ahead!!!!
Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NINASUZIE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 3:44pm
Maire,
 
I swear we will all say we knew you when....you are such a wonderful educator!  So perhaps you will become a medical school instructor as well!
 
Your information is something I have thought was quite relevant to BC and TN might particularly help DFS/OS rates, as you stated in your post.
 
I am going to talk with Dana Farber next week...can you send me the posting link for the MD Anderson research posted that you learned all this from? 
 
When I first saw DF oncology, they were emphasizing my doing a neoadjuvant clinical trial using Avastin to see if it would shrink my tumor so I might have a lumpectomy, as I was on the "edge" size wize....I said no due to distance, questioning my options if I "flunked out" of the study and my gut always said, do a mastectomy, if not a double.
 
My conversation next week will be to have them emphasize the ability to watch the reaction of the tumor to the chemo regime-very important.  And that if successful in treating the tumor, having a pathological complete response is possible. 
 
Alas, I cannot be certain that it's working, nor have a Pcr....I suspect this may become a very strongly debated, if not recommended option for tx.  I must say, I would like to have as stimulating and relevant conversation with the oncologists as with you, my dear friend from Tornado LandWink  Thanks a million...fyi, my daughter's BFF is having a wee babe and her name will be yours!!!
Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mefowler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 6:44pm
Dear Suzie,
 
Thanks for the nice words, and thanks to the others as well.  I was going to PM you with this information, but then I thought maybe others would like to see this too.
 
 
 
This is an abstract from a study called The Triple Negative Paradox: Primary Tumor Chemosensitivity of Breast Cancer subtypes.   http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/8/2329?ck=nck
 
This is a web page about general information about triple negative survival: 
 
Here is the same article in PDF form:
 
 
This is a breastcancer.org web page that discusses the MD Anderson at the top of the post in real language: http://www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/diagnosis/trip_neg/treatment.jsp
 
Some of these are abstracts and a couple are full articles.
 
Hope this is helpful to you in your discussions with your oncologist.  Good luck next week.  I had my first radiation treatment today and I got my tattoos.  I never thought I would be a painted lady!LOL  What will I tell my girls?  I'll probably tell them that if they get cancer, I'll let them get a tattoo.
 
Take care!
 
Maire
 
PS  That is so cool about the baby!  Although it will probably drive her crazy like it did me.  And if you think MY name is bad, I have nieces named Mairead, Caitriona, and Siobhan.  Where did those Irish people come up with these spellings!
 


Edited by mefowler - Jun 18 2009 at 6:47pm
53 yo, dx'd 11/08 at 51, 2.9 cm IDC, node-neg, neoadj chemotx with Taxotere/carboplatin q3wks x 6, lumpectomy 4/09, path showed pCR, margin reexcision 5/09, rad'n 6-8/09, intermittent Tarceva, dc'd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ellen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2009 at 8:32pm
Hello,
 
Thank you for the info on TNBC.  I have searched extensively but was unable to locate even 1/4 of what is posted on this topic string.  THANKS! 
 
I was diagnosed w/ TNBC 11/2008, started  neoadjuvant chemotherapy 12/08.....4 rounds of AC, 4 rounds of T, complete 3/09 - dose dense meaning every 2 weeks as opposed to 3.  My tumor was very large - 5 cm at start of treatment.  
 
I had 2 lymph nodes at 3cm.  One was biopsied, the other was not. Both cancerous.  
 
My initial reaction in meeting with the oncologist and surgeon was to "get this thing out of me"!  Both strongly recommended  neoadjuvant chemotherapy due to size of tumor and TN.  Treatment after chemo was  surgery and then radiation.   At intial diagnosis a mastecomy would have been necessary due to tumor size.
 
Once chemo begain, the tumor began shrinking in size almost immediately.  The oncologist had told me that he would adjust the AC/T if necessary but in fact the intial treatment was effective.
 
Surgery was 4/09 - Lumpectomy - no cancer was found on the pathology report! Yahoo.  25 lymph nodes ultimately removed.   Currently undergoing 33 radiation treatments with 25 left to go.
 
My Oncologist advised that my mortality rate (hate that term) is now at 85%, as opposed to the 95% listed in the material.    Possibly this is due to lymph node involvement...?
 
My intent in posting is to encourage women to consider chemo treatment prior to surgery if recommended.  I found it to be a bit strange to know that the "tumor" was still on board so to speak, but it was also incredibly encouraging when it began to shrink during chemo.  Neoadjuvant chemo also enabled me to have a lumpectomy as opposed to a mastectomy.
 
I am a new poster...first time on any forum.  I don't know what the proper etiquette is, but it is my intent to be sensitive to other women who may not have had the same result with neoadjuvant chemotherapy.  I am very thankful for the good result, but the fight is by no means over.
 
I am very appreciative of this site, the forums and the woman who have posted such valuable information.  Many thanks.
 
P.S.  Neg  BRCA 1 and 2 genes. 47 at diagnosis.
 
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabatha00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 4:44am
O.k. I wish I wouldn't have read those articles!  lol    
 
I am sure there are many many triple negative survivors out there and I'm just going to concentrate on being one of them.  
 
Suzie, I'm not sure why 9 treatments.......they just said I would be doing 3, 3, and 3 for a total of 9 treatments.   My tumor was removed but the Dr left positive margins because he knew I wanted a mastectomy so I technically still have some of the little booger in me but I am encouraged by what I have read regarding chemo before surgery.   I just want to be a LONG TERM survivor and I'll do whatever it is I have to do!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NINASUZIE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 5:40am
Maire,
 
Thank you so very much for the information!!!!  It seems that the oncs do better with distillation and questions rather than being confronted with an article in black and white face to face!  More specific to my questions anyway!  It will be immensely helpful.  I agree that putting on a thread gets this information out there for everyone to utilize...and maybe make a better, informed decision of chemo/surgery first, right?
 
Yes, she has also come up with a Celtic spelling which will boggle and confuse all that her name is-MAURA!!!  But, it is better than some that are absolutely beyond phonetic pronounciation, correct???  (And they had those!)
 
Tats you say?  You don't mean radiation "Xs"???  You mean real tattoos?  I saw a beautiful bilateral post tattoo garden in color across a breast cancer survivor's chest (complete w/butterfly) and it was wonderful!  Hugs,
Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mefowler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 11:34am

Dear Tabatha,

Don't get discouraged by those articles.  Remember that your LN was removed BEFORE chemo, not after.  Those studies are based on neoadjuvant chemotherapy with lymph node dissection AFTER chemotherapy.  That is one of the reasons that neoadjuvant chemotherapy is good, it can eliminate LN metastases as well as the original tumor.  So they really don't apply to your situation, except if there is no residual cancer when you have your mastectomy and no additional positive lymph nodes, you could argue that is a pathologic complete response.  Anyway, everyone is different.  I read a long time ago about a study of people with cancer and their different approaches.  They divided people into four groups, those who acknowledged they had cancer but fought it and had a positive attitude, those who acknowledged they had cancer and gave up, those who denied having cancer, and I can't remember the fourth group.  The people who did the best were those who acknowledged they had cancer, fought it, and had a positive attitude.  Second-best was those who denied even having cancer.  The worst outcome was in those people who acknowledged they had cancer but gave up hope.  So it was better to deny the cancer and treatment than to admit the cancer and give up.  Attitude is everything.  And even if you have occasional bad days (and we all do), remember that, as Abraham Lincoln reportedly said, we are about as happy as we make up our minds to be.  When my kids were little they had a book called, "It Could Always Be Worse" about a Russian farmer who goes to his rabbi and says that the house is too small, and everyone is crowded, and what should he do, and the rabbi tells him to bring the cow in from the barn.   The next week it is worse, and the rabbi has him bring in the goats.  Then the various other barn animals.  At last, when he goes to the rabbi to tell him how everything is going (horribly!!!) the rabbi tells him to put all the animals back in the barn.  When he comes back the next week, everything is wonderful, "we have so much space".  So it all depends on our perspective.  Hopefully, when we get back to a state of good health, all our problems will seem inconsequential when compared to our breast cancer.
 
Boy, this post sure demonstrates my chemo-aggravated ADD!!!LOL
 
Hope everyone has a great weekend.
 
Maire
53 yo, dx'd 11/08 at 51, 2.9 cm IDC, node-neg, neoadj chemotx with Taxotere/carboplatin q3wks x 6, lumpectomy 4/09, path showed pCR, margin reexcision 5/09, rad'n 6-8/09, intermittent Tarceva, dc'd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabatha00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 11:49am

Forgive me but now I think I'm really confused!!!!!   lol

I had an excisional biopsy and the surgeon did NOT get clear margins because he knew I wanted a mastectomy.  

When I had my CT scans, bone scan, mammos, and axilla ultrasound, they said everything looked clear and my lymph nodes looked normal.   I am going to have chemo BEFORE I have my double mastectomies which means nobody has taken my lymph nodes yet.   Is this bad?

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mefowler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 2:27pm

Quote from Tabatha00: "When I had my CT scans, bone scan, mammos, and axilla ultrasound, they said everything looked clear and my lymph nodes looked normal.   I am going to have chemo BEFORE I have my double mastectomies which means nobody has taken my lymph nodes yet.   Is this bad?"

Dear Tabatha,
 
I am so sorry, I combined your story with that of another member and confused everyone.  No, that is not bad.  After your mastectomies and your sentinel LN dissection, if there is no residual invasive cancer, that is a pathologic complete response.  When you said that you should not have read the articles, I thought you must be worried for a reason, and you haven't even had your chemo yet!  Like I said earlier, most doctors take out the LNs after neoadjuvant chemo.  I read that there are currently plans to rework staging for patient who receive neoadjuvant chemotherapy, but this is still in the planning stages.
 
If it makes you nervous to read stuff, don't.  It makes me feel better, even if I don't like what it says.  I guess I have always believed that knowledge is power.  It is your attitude that matters.  And you believe that you will survive.
 
Maire
 
 
53 yo, dx'd 11/08 at 51, 2.9 cm IDC, node-neg, neoadj chemotx with Taxotere/carboplatin q3wks x 6, lumpectomy 4/09, path showed pCR, margin reexcision 5/09, rad'n 6-8/09, intermittent Tarceva, dc'd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cg--- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 2:49pm

With all due respect Maire - anecdotal - 'attitude equals outcome' places an undue stress on an already stressed individual (the woman with the breast cancer). The scientific reality is that "a positive attitude) has no bearing on survival.  Should the cancer return - the woman will also be left with the feelings of being a "failure" -(maybe she wasn't positive enough!) I think whatever helps them get through the process with the least amount of permanent damage, physically, emotionally, mentally - that is the prescription for that individual.

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Fighting Cancer With a Frown

Research Questions
Role of Optimism
In Beating the Disease
'The Tyranny of Positive Thinking'

By AMY DOCKSER MARCUS
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
April 6, 2004; Page D1

Researchers are having second thoughts about a long-trusted piece of conventional wisdom: that a positive attitude can help patients beat cancer.

Until now, cancer care has included trying to find ways to improve a patient's attitude. Self-help books, cancer Web sites and loved ones often urge patients to stay positive, arguing that an optimistic outlook is a critical tool in overcoming the disease.

But a new body of work examining the biological underpinnings of attitude suggests that its connection to fighting cancer may be more complex. So far, the findings indicate that successful coping isn't necessarily about having a positive outlook.

%5bdiscussion%5d
Join a discussion with Journal reporter Amy Dockser Marcus about the debate over thinking positively and beating cancer.

More important may be coping in a way a patient is used to, which could involve anything from stress relief to exercise rather than simply striving for a cheery disposition. Indeed, if someone is a natural curmudgeon, then continuing to be a curmudgeon may be the very thing to help lower stress, bolster the immune system and, possibly, influence the success of the cancer treatment.

"Many pessimists cope well with cancer," says Jimmie Holland, the chair of psychiatric oncology at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Hospital in New York. "You can be as curmudgeonly or angry or whiny as you want and still survive cancer, as long as it doesn't cause your doctor to throw you out of the office."

The current work is being driven by what Dr. Holland calls "the tyranny of positive thinking" and its impact on patients. Many patients fear they are lowering their chances of survival if they don't feel positive, creating an additional burden at a time when they are overwhelmed by their diagnosis.

The research doesn't focus so much on patients' tendencies to look at the glass as half-full or half-empty and how they may influence survival outcomes. Instead, researchers are examining how different coping styles may affect indicators of disease-fighting ability, such as cortisol rhythms (a measure of stress levels) and natural killer cell counts (a measure of immune response). With better understanding of these variables, doctors and researchers hope to find ways, such as muscle relaxation or problem solving, to help patients keep stress and natural killer cells at levels that improve their chances of extending survival.

Cindy Miller, 46, was diagnosed in 2000 with breast cancer and had a mastectomy, eight rounds of chemotherapy and drugs. She says that she had many bad days when she felt angry, sad and scared. "Telling someone to feel positive makes you feel like you are not being understood," says the mother of two, who lives outside Philadelphia.

Ultimately, Ms. Miller says she did maintain an optimistic view that she could survive, but she doesn't believe that simply being positive improved her survival odds. More important, she says, was staying true to her regular coping style, which involved actively seeking out complementary care to bolster what her doctor was doing. She changed her diet to only organic foods, did massage to ease the pain and ran as much as she could. "I'm a naturally optimistic person," she says. "You are who you are, and you bring that to cancer."

The new approach also stems from the realization that after more than a decade of research trying to link optimism with improved cancer survival, the data haven't revealed much evidence of a connection. In February, the American Cancer Society journal, Cancer, published a report about 179 patients newly diagnosed with non-small-cell lung cancer who were followed for five years.

HEALING ATTITUDE
Recent research suggests a new way of looking at positive thinking and cancer:

 Patients do better sticking to their regular coping styles.
 
 High stress levels can weaken immune response.
 
 Patients with abnormal cortisol patterns, an indicator of stress, died sooner than those with normal patterns.
 
 Positive attitude can help some patients eat right, exercise and follow doctor's orders.
 

The investigators found that a patient's level of optimism didn't affect survival time. A British Medical Journal review in 2002 of 37 other studies on the effect of psychological coping styles found most also showed no connection between positive attitude and improved survival.

Mark Petticrew, a public-health researcher at the University of Glasgow in Scotland who helped lead the review, says positive thinking can still help. In a number of studies, it was associated with better compliance with the doctors' orders, improved mood and less pain. "But positive thinking is often sold as a cure all to cancer and it isn't," he said.

The latest work is different in that it is based on "a more complex measure of optimism," says David Spiegel, a psychiatrist at Stanford University School of Medicine, who is heading one of the studies. Back in 1989, he was the lead author on a seminal paper published in Lancet that looked at the effect of participating in support groups on 86 women with metastatic breast cancer. At the 10-year follow up, only three patients were alive -- all support group members -- and death records were obtained for the other 83 women. The study reported that women who participated in the group survived 36.6 months from entry into the study, compared with 18.9 months for the control group.

The results caused a stir, generating huge public and academic interest. Cancer patients were urged to join support groups. But in follow-up studies, the results weren't easily duplicated. In one major study designed to replicate Dr. Spiegel's original findings with metastatic breast-cancer patients, women assigned to a support group showed improved mood and the perception of less pain but didn't survive any longer than women not in the group. Dr. Spiegel says that some randomized trials looking at cancers besides breast cancer, such as melanoma, did find that effective psychological support could predict longer survival. But there were just as many that found it didn't.

As a result, he says his group is now in the 12th year of a similar study but taking a different approach. In the previous study, the only thing measured was length of survival time based on death certificates. In the current one, researchers are assessing the effects of stress and its management on the body, guided by the idea that the stress that cancer patients feel while coping may weaken their immune systems. Researchers are measuring the women's cortisol concentrations in their saliva, an indicator of stress, and counting their circulating natural-killer cells, a measure of immune response.

Although the study is ongoing, in a preliminary report published in 2000 in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, the researchers found that patients whose cortisol levels were flat and didn't follow the typical pattern of declining throughout the day, died sooner than women with normal cortisol patterns. The finding, researchers believe, indicates that there may be psychological interventions that can boost disease-fighting ability, a notion that in the past has driven the focus on staying positive.

But what if the pressure to be upbeat raised someone's stress level? Researchers are now realizing that people cope with stress in vastly different ways, and that they need to find solutions that match someone's natural temperament and personality. The next step is finding the mechanisms that enable patients to keep their cortisol patterns and natural killer cells at optimum levels and hopefully extend their survival. "For some patients this may happen by being uncooperative and unpleasant rather than positive," Dr. Spiegel says.

At Ohio State University, an ongoing study is measuring not only survival rates but also endocrine responses and biological markers of immunity. Women participating in the study, all of whom share similar diagnoses for breast cancer, are learning muscle relaxation, problem solving, and time management techniques. They are making dietary changes, such as reducing fat and increasing fiber, and exercising, all in the hope that some methods will bolster the women's ability to fight and ultimately beat the disease.

Write to Amy Dockser Marcus at amy.marcus@wsj.com


NOVEMBER 15-30, 2007
VOLUME 4 NO. 19

PATIENTS & PRACTICE

Good cheer's no cure for cancer: study

Experts face off over positive thinking's
impact on CA survival

By Owen Dyer


Lance Armstrong may have a lot to answer for, if a new study challenging the notion that a positive attitude can cure cancer is anything to go by. The study will appear in December in the journal Cancer.

We hear so many stories about heroes like Mr Armstrong facing up to their cancer these days with strength and good cheer, that oncologists refer to it as the "prison of positive thinking." That phrase describes the pressure which faces a patient newly diagnosed with cancer, who not only has to deal with possible imminent death, but also feels obliged to show everyone how strong and cheerful they are about it.

Well the pressure is now off. Psychologist James Coyne, PhD, of the University of Pennsylvania, and colleagues conclude that emotional well-being had no influence on the survival of 1,093 head and neck cancer patients.

MIND OVER MATTER
In popular culture, we are told how people are battling cancer with their strength of will. The obvious implication is that strength of will improves their chances of winning the battle.

The obvious flip-side implication is that weakness, self-pity or depression actually reduce patients' chances of surviving cancer. So those with negative feelings about it all - a natural enough response to cancer - end up feeling doubly bad, because they must worry that their worrying is making them sicker.

At the extreme, patients can even blame their mental state for the development of their cancer. A 2001 survey of nearly 400 Canadian breast cancer patients by University of Toronto researchers found that 42% cited stress as one of the main causes of their disease, considerably more than blamed either genetic or environmental causes.

"I think cancer survival is basically biological," said Dr Coyne. "Cancer patients shouldn't blame themselves - too often we think if cancer were beatable, you should beat it. You can't control your cancer. For some, this news may lead to some level of acceptance."

REALITY CHECK
Dr Coyne's study is by no means the first to address this question, but it's certainly the biggest to home in ruthlessly on survival, dismissing surrogate endpoints that the authors believe have muddied the waters in previous research.

At the study's outset, the 1,093 subjects completed a validated questionnaire often used to measure quality of life in cancer, the Functional Assessment of Cancer Therapy-General (FACT-G). It includes five questions that measure emotional well-being.

Of these patients, 646 died during the course of the study, which is considerably more deaths than the overall number of subjects in previous trials. After controlling for tumour size and known socioeconomic variables, the researchers found that "no statistically significant univariate or multivariate effects were observed for emotional well-being." These latest findings, Dr Coyne said, "may not end the debate, but they provide the strongest evidence to date."

DEBATE HEATS UP
Writing in the journal Psycho-Oncology this month, Dr Coyne suggested that ending the debate might be a good idea: "Belabouring the argument that psychotherapy promotes survival is not scientifically justified and risks slighting the important benefits that psychological interventions may have for some patients in terms of reducing their distress."

Dr Coyne was particularly critical of a landmark 1989 Lancet study by a leader in the field, Dr David Spiegel of Stanford University, which he said became a gold-standard study despite what he considers an underpowered sample and a "less appropriate analytic technique."

He didn't stop there: "Unsubstantiated claims about benefits for survival, however well intended and hopeful, are medical claims and just as objectionable as when unsubstantiated claims are made about herbs or coffee enemas as cures of cancer."

Ouch. Dr Spiegel, needless to say, isn't taking that lying down. "Dr Coyne was a solid depression researcher who is a newcomer to this field and is trying to establish himself by attacking me and others," he told NRM. "He has crossed the line of polite debate, and I've actually had to make some complaints."

TOUCHY TOPIC
Head and neck cancer, says Dr Spiegel, is a poor choice to search for emotional factors impacting survival, because it's known to have a minimal hormonal component, and hormones are the main mechanism by which emotions are postulated to effect survival.

Dr Spiegel pointed to a study in September's Journal of Psychosomatic Research which found that women with recurrent breast cancer who reported traumatic events in their lives had seen average remissions less than half as long as those who reported stress-free lives. The weight of research is still balanced between positive and null results, he said. He himself is currently conducting research aimed at replicating his famous 1989 results.

Dr Coyne and his allies had simplified and mischaracterized his findings, said Dr Spiegel. "Talk of a 'prison of positive thinking' is misplaced. Looking after patients' emotional well-being has never been about telling patients to 'put on a happy face'. There is more than one kind of positive thinking in cancer: no-one advocates encouraging blind optimism that you'll be cured. The patients who benefit from their mental attitude are those who find the strength to face the possible bad consequences, those who learn to live with the possibility of death."

 

Study Shows Positive Thinking by Patient Has No Impact on Surviving Cancer

By Salynn Boyles
WebMD Health News

Reviewed By Louise Chang, MD

Oct. 22, 2007 -- Having a positive attitude may help cancer patients deal with their disease, but it doesn't directly affect survival, according to one of the largest and most rigorously designed investigations ever to examine the issue.

The study included more than 1,000 people treated for head and neck cancer; the emotional state of patients was found to have no influence on survival.

The findings add to the growing evidence showing no scientific basis for the popular notion that an upbeat attitude is critical for "beating" cancer, says University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine behavioral scientist James C. Coyne, PhD, who led the study team.

"I wish it were true that cancer survival was influenced by the patient's emotional state," he tells WebMD. "But given that it is not, I think we should stop blaming the patient."

'The Tyranny of Positive Thinking'

Jimmie Holland, MD, agrees. The Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center psychiatrist is a longtime critic of the "mind over cancer" proponents who tell patients they must stay positive to survive their disease.

In her book The Human Side of Cancer, Living with Hope, Coping with Uncertainty, Holland coined the term "the tyranny of positive thinking" to describe the belief.

"The idea that we can control illness and death with our minds appeals to our deepest yearnings, but it just isn't so," she tells WebMD. "It is so sad that cancer patients are made to believe that if they aren't doing well it is somehow their own fault because they aren't positive enough."

Holland does acknowledge the benefits of staying positive during cancer treatment, and she is an advocate of techniques like relaxation, meditation, support groups, and prayer to help patients cope with their disease.

But she says there is no credible evidence that positive thinking alone directly influences tumor growth.

"People really want to believe this, so even very good studies like this one probably won't change public thinking," she says. "But the scientific community is getting the message."

Attitude and Cancer Survival

The newly published study included 1,093 patients with head and neck cancer who completed quality-of-life questionnaires during their treatment.

Coyne says the study group was limited to patients with a single cancer who had similar treatments to better assess the impact of state of mind on survival.

A total of 646 patients died during the study follow-up. Even after acounting for other variables that could affect survival, a patient's emotional state was found to have no bearing on whether or not he or she lived or died.

The study appears in the Dec. 1 issue of the American Cancer Society (ACS) journal Cancer.

In a separate review of other studies published earlier this year, Coyne, University of Pennsylvania colleague Steven Palmer, PhD, and ACS researcher Michael Stefanek, PhD, found insufficient evidence that participation in psychotherapy or cancer support groups plays a role in survival.

In that report, the researchers concluded that the hope that emotional state is a driving factor in cancer outcomes "appears to have been misplaced."

"If cancer patients want psychotherapy or to be in a support group, they should be given the opportunity to do so," they wrote in the journal Psychological Bulletin. "There can be lots of emotional and social benefits. But [patients] should not seek such experiences solely on the expectation that they are extending their lives."

SOURCES: Coyne, J.C. Cancer, Dec. 1, 2007; vol 110: online edition. James C. Coyne, PhD, department of psychiatry, University of Pennsylvania Health System, Philadelphia. Jimmie Holland, MD, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York City. Coyne, J. Psychological Bulletin, 2007; vol 133: no. 3.

© 2007 WebMD Inc. All rights.

Connie

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabatha00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 3:27pm
With all due respect, it's my opinion that a positive attitude is PARAMOUNT for surviving EVERY DAY life.....not just cancer.   We basically have to deal with things how we feel is best and not judge one another for how they feel or deal with it.    There is a lady I work with and she had breast cancer and she is pretty negative and I choose not to be around her very much because I choose to look at the GOOD and not concentrate on the bad.   I choose to not be around people like that in general so especially during this trying time I can't deal with negativity.  
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JanetK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 3:49pm
Ok What does "The researchers suggest that patients with triple-negative breast cancer may benefit from third generation adjuvant or neoadjuvant chemotherapy regimens that eliminate residual disease, but admit that such an approach has not yet been verified in clinical trials." mean exactly? That they are guessing. Does this mean that after my neoadjuvant chemo, then my rads, that a third run of chemo should be done?
I am soooo sooo sick of this is the right way to go...no, huh uh this is..How the hell are we supposed to make these "informed decisions" if they dont even know what is best!!?? I am so frustrated at reading all this stuff, none of it matches up. I feel like a Guinea pig on a block! Or more apropriate a rat running around and around in circles guessing which way to go.
The clinical trial I am doing is called NSABP B-40,
http://www.nsabp.pitt.edu/B40_Protocol_Brochure.pdf
I was randomized in the 1B group
It is neoadjuvant.
my tumor is shrinking. I am to have a sonogram next wednesday to see by how much. I was on 4 cycles of Taxotere/Avastin. Now my next 4 cycles next Thursday, will be AC/Avastin. I am terrified of the side effects of the AC, From here and other places side effects from AC are worse than that of Taxotere.
And I was in the hospital immediately following 1 and 3 treatments.
Im not sure that I will have rads or not(I will have to reread the protol). But from what Ive read at the onset of my disease that rads after surgery realy up the % of overall suvival and/reocurrance.
I am sorry if I seam a little more than dienchanted by what the doctors REALLY know about this insidious disease we cal TNBC.
My heart goes out to all of you that have or have a loved one with this disease. hopes and prayers daily.
Hugs and love
Janet
TNBC feb 13,2009
2.6x 3.5
neoadjuvant chemo 8 rounds
Lumpectomy successful Oct 09
axillary node dissection Nov 09
still awaiting results
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cg--- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 4:25pm
My point exactly.....I believe a person should deal with it any way that works for them...I just do not believe that just because I am a glass-half full person - positive and determined to find the best to work for me and my cancer - but for someone who is not like that - why should anyone suggest 'positive attitude is the difference' - It may work for you and the coworker with 'negative nellie' style - that is her way of coping.  Her feelings are just as real - that is her coping mechanism - but they have not proven the survival rate is any different - the journey is.

I just think to suggest 'positive attitude' being crammed down a poor woman's throat is just as stressing as the disease and the treatment. 
And maybe that poor woman can't deal with all the 'positivity' which may add another burden to her battered psyche.
 
Connie
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mefowler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2009 at 4:59pm
Dear Connie,
 
I completely understand what you are saying, and I even agree with you in many ways, but I think you are misinterpreting my position.  Which is easy to do since I never explained what I meant.  I totally agree that the whole positive thinking results in cure is ridiculous.  My mother-in-law was a big believer in that way of thinking, and when she got lung cancer she read the books and thought positive, and was devasted and blamed herself when it didn't work.  It makes me furious when the victim is blamed for his or her disease.  I feel the same way about people attribute their health and wealth and happiness to their religious beliefs, as if God does not care about the sick and the poor.
 
I do think, however, that attitude is important.  No one knows how long they will live.   All we have is today.  None of us, cancer or not, have any guarantees that we will have a tomorrow.  If we allow our cancer to destroy today, what do we have?   In many ways, cancer is a gift.  It allows us to acknowledge our mortality and make amends and restore relationships, even if we don't die of that.  Nothing looks quite the same after we find out we have cancer. 
 
I am probably approaching this from my point of view as an incurable optimist.   I have always believed that we determine our happiness day by day.  We decide how happy we are going to be.  Happiness, in my opinion, does not depend on what is happening to us on the outside.  It is determined by our interpretation about what is happening to us.  A good attitude may not make us live longer, but it sure as hell can make whatever time we have better.
 
A good attitude does not result in a cure.   I am sure that there are people with great attitudes that die of cancer and that many people with horrible attitudes survive.  But what kind of life do you have with that attitude?  Not one I would want.  As it said at the end of the last article:
 
"Talk of a 'prison of positive thinking' is misplaced. Looking after patients' emotional well-being has never been about telling patients to 'put on a happy face'. There is more than one kind of positive thinking in cancer: no-one advocates encouraging blind optimism that you'll be cured. The patients who benefit from their mental attitude are those who find the strength to face the possible bad consequences, those who learn to live with the possibility of death."
 
I completely agree with that.  We don't cause our cancer and we are not to blame if we don't get better, but we do have the ability to find meaning and strength in whatever comes our way. 
 
But that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.
 
Maire
53 yo, dx'd 11/08 at 51, 2.9 cm IDC, node-neg, neoadj chemotx with Taxotere/carboplatin q3wks x 6, lumpectomy 4/09, path showed pCR, margin reexcision 5/09, rad'n 6-8/09, intermittent Tarceva, dc'd
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