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Topic: alternative treatment to this>
Posted By: mysunshine
Subject: alternative treatment to this>
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 10:56am
Hello all; I am new to this site. My mom has stage 3 grade a t1 c n1 mo triple negative, she has refuse all surgery and all chemo. I really fear that this is not sane, she is choosing the Gerson Protocol ( I think that is the correct spelling)  diet along with mineral and oxygen treatments . Has anyone done this out there and is it really worth it!!! I'm so worries about her.



Replies:
Posted By: Sunris
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 11:26am
Hi there mysunshine :)

I am sorry your mother has this horrible disease. I can already tell that she will be very blessed to have you in her life through this difficult time for her.

I have never personally heard of the Gerson? Protocol but now that I've heard of it I will definitely google it. I'm a curious person.

Sweetie, I wish I had a miracle answer for you, but I don't. I do however think that your mother will need your support no matter what decisions she makes regarding surgery or treatment plans. If she doesn't
want treatment or surgery, just please love her, support her, and accept her choice.

I am not a pro in the alternative treatment category but I have heard there are some good things out there that are helping some people.

I will keep you & your mother in my prayers.



-------------
Dawn

Age 43 at DX

DX 3-09 IDC 3.9cm

TN-Stage2-Grade3

Taxolx9, FACx2, halted TX,

Lump.8-25-09..rads x 8wks.



Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 11:51am
Hi Dawn, Thank you. Yes this is very hard for her, we do support her even though we don't agree; I pray for her all the time. Thank you for your prayers!!Red%20HeartMisty


Posted By: dmwolf
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 12:38pm
Yes, I've heard of the Gerson diet.  It's been around a long time, maybe since the 70's.  I think they do a lot of juicing and engage in appetizing-sounding activities like coffee enemas (yum!...cut out the middleman).  Joking aside, some people swear by it, but I'm pretty sure there's not much in the way of data showing efficacy.  Still, it probably can't hurt (unless of course, being on it convinces her not to do other things with a better track record).  Does your mom have the book, 'Choices in Healing' by Michael Lerner?  I strongly recommend it. He is unusually wonderful at weighing evidence for and against all kinds of therapies, alternative and traditional.  Gerson's diet is discussed in one of the chapters on diet, as are some other popular diet-based approaches to dealing with cancer.   The book is a little dated, but still very worth reading.

As for her choice, well, it's not what I chose, and sounds pretty risky to me (as in, possibly blowing her chance to be cured by not at least having the surgery).  But we all have our paths, and we are all different.  She might have a deep understanding of what she needs, what will hurt or harm her, and this might be the right thing for her, however unconventional.    For instance, there are some cancers (like certain lymphomas) where they have learned NOT to take out the primary tumor.  In these cancers, the primary tumor actually makes a substance that inhibits growth of micro-metastases around the body.  Maybe your mom is sensing that her cancer is not curable, and that she will live longer if she basically lets it be.  We can't know what is right or wrong for any particular person.  Statistics are limited in that way.

Anyways, I'm sorry your family is going through this, and I wish you well.  As others have said, we are here to support you and your mother no matter how she decides to proceed.

Love,
Denise

**the only thing I might want to make sure of is that she knows the statistics.  That is, her chances of living 5 years with 1) no treatment, 2) surgery only, and 3) surgery and chemo.  I guess the catch is that she wouldn't consider the Gerson diet 'no treatment', so might not buy the argument.  Still, she should have the numbers in her head so she makes an informed decision.


-------------
DX 2/08@43 stg II IDC; gr2,0 nodes. Neoadj chemo, first ACx2 (fail) then CarboTaxotereX6(better). Lump, Rads done 11/08; Clodronate. False alarm queen: PetCT lung & TM marker. NED. PBM w/recon 9/10.


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 12:48pm
Thank you for the advice; her DR. said that with out the surgery or the chemo she is actually at a 5% survival rate with 3 years. Your right, she with all her convictions in western medicine  is to not do the traditional treatment. I really hope that she gets better. She is losing weight and is sick a lot; she says it is from the detoxing, but i don't really know . Thank youPink%20Ribbon for your kindness.


Posted By: kirby
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 1:02pm
Mysunshine,  I know it must be hard to watch your mother. Denise spoke so well there is not much to add. I have known several women that have chose no tx/alt. tx. Their families were freaked out about their choices. One, I am not sure she really grasped the reality of her situation and by the time she did want to do some tx it really was too late. I don't say this to scare you but accptance of others choices is difficult, especially if it differs radically from our own. Life can be a hard path. Tolerance and acceptance can be some of our hardest lessons.

-------------
kirby

dx Feb. 2001. Age 44
Lumpectomy

2cm. no nodes stage 1 grade 3

4 rnds AC, 35 rads


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 1:05pm
so true sister, thank you Broken%20Heart


Posted By: billie
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 2:30pm
Hi there mysunshine,
            I just thought I might suggest to you for you and your mother to research  Jane Plant.Amazing diet and an amazing lady.My sister started this diet of hers while she was going through chemo and I wanted to tell you this.That yes my sister was loosing a lot of weight fast since you are questioning if the weight loss is due to the cancer or the diet .But my sisters weight loss was due to the difference in the way she was eating.It is a strong possibility that the weight lose is due to your mothers change in eating habits.We all realize how hard it is to except the choice that your mother has made,but just try your hardest to be supportive of her and support her decision.That is why I am suggesting that you help her to research alternatives.Who knows.God Bless you and your mother.Lots and Lots of Huggggssss   Billie  


-------------
Billie posting for sis Betty/67/caucasion female/diagnosed 2-27-08/gradeIII/7mm/invasive ductal carcinoma/T N /clear margins/node neg/4 X's taxotere-cytoxan/36 rads/7-08 PET/CT double image/no cancer


Posted By: jadesloge
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 4:01pm

There is a book called Christans and Cancer by a man named Mike Wilson. His wife had IBC and did a diet that sounds very much like what is described above. She did this, but ALSO did chemo and surgery. She made it nearly 5 years disease free. I just heard she has bone mets. I don't know if the disease free was from chemo and surgery and radiation or the diet. She is still going to do it this time around too, so they must put some stock in it.



Posted By: billie
Date Posted: Jul 10 2009 at 7:15pm
Hi again mysunshine,
       
       I have just taken the time to do a little research on the gerson diet.Oh My Goodness.From what I read that diet is gosh awful.I would be much interested to know where your mother found out about that alternative treatment.When I say this please do not think that I am suggesting for one minute for her  not to do chemo or radiation,but I am going to say this.If your mother follows that diet ,she could die from an infection faster than  her refusing to do chemo and radiation.There are too many other alternative treatments to choose from rather than that one.
 
     I do not know your mothers age but my sister was 67 when we were told that she had TNBC and that she would have to do chemo and radiation.After I did a lot of my research for her,I said to my sister that I did not want her to do chemo that I was afraid.And I will never forget her words.I have to do the chemo if I want to live,and I want to live.So within a 12 month period,my beautiful sister had a lumpectomy,chemo,radiation,back surgery,lost her husband to cancer, and then in March of 09 she had a hip replacement.I was with her all the way and It was my wish to get her healthy enough so that in the event that she should get this beast again that she would be healthy enough to fight it.And healthy she is.I have to say this one more time.My sister came through chemo better than I had ever dreamed she would.
 
      What is your moms age?Could there be other reasons that your mom chooses not to do the chemo and radiation?Could it be insurance reasons?I have a friend who is terminal from lung cancer and she has no insurance.But she swears that even if she did have insurance that she would not choose chemo.She has lost 2 sisters to ung cancer,and treatment did nothing for either of them.So I am constantly doing research for alternative treatment.She is trying the asparagus puree,another one she has found and I just recently sent her research on the oleander soup and cancer.At this time MD Anderson is doing a several trials on the oleander bush.In D'Hanis,Texas ,there is a farmer that is growing fields of oleanders for MD Anderson's trials being done right now.
 
      My sister never read on the forum,she depended on me to tell her all that she needed to know.But I can say this to you mysunshine.If it had not been for this forum and its beautiful ladies I do believe that I would have lost it.They helped me to stay strong so that I could be strong for my sister.Do you think that you could get your mom to talk with some of the ladies on the forum?If she is afraid these ladies will hold her hand as well as yours, all the way.That I can promise both of you.
 
      There are some that chose not to receive treatment,but they are usually not on here.But there is a member named Jessie that because of heart problems did not receive treatment and she is doing ok.Again try to get your Mom to talk with these ladies and they will support her in what ever way she chooses.But do your best to try to talk her out of that gerson diet thing.That one scares me a little.Lots and Lots of Hugggggsssss    Billie
 
    


-------------
Billie posting for sis Betty/67/caucasion female/diagnosed 2-27-08/gradeIII/7mm/invasive ductal carcinoma/T N /clear margins/node neg/4 X's taxotere-cytoxan/36 rads/7-08 PET/CT double image/no cancer


Posted By: dmayes
Date Posted: Jul 12 2009 at 7:04pm
Hi MySunshine,
 
If your mum is going to use diet alone to tackle this - may I also suggest the book "AntiCancer - A new way of life" by Dr DAvid Servan-Schreiber.  A great book on the good/bad foods for cancer and other important things to consider - such as exercise and mediation (stress relieve).  Well worth the read.
 
May I also ask if she is taking Vit D3 - a good prohibitor of cancer - maybe she could ask her doc about that (My onc has me on 2000mg per day during chemo treatment -as well as calcium) - good luck to you and your mum as you work through this bump on the life road.
 
Love Debs


-------------
Debs | Laugh every day, Love every minute.
Dx Mar09 - LB IDC 4.5cm - 0 nodes. BRCA -
Cytoxin/Taxotere x4 end Jul09.
ReCon surgery March10.


Posted By: alene
Date Posted: Jul 12 2009 at 10:53pm
You should definitely follow everyone else's advice out here..
Do NOT listen to me...
They are right...and I am absolutely wrong...
I shouldn't say what I'm thinking...really...
 
Oh no...
I just can't help myself....I have to say this..
 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Stop her...she's going to kill herself...Hurry...
Get her back to her doctor NOW!
Throw a fit...lay on the floor...hold your breath...cry...beg...
Tell her that you'll be back tomorrow and the day after and the day after...
Tell her you are prepared to do whatever it takes...to save her from herself....
Look up statistics...print stuff to show her that she needs to act NOW!
Use emotional blackmail...The grandkids need her...or the grandkids "to be" need her...Plan an "intervention"..Get everyone she loves involved....
Tell her doctor what she is planning so he is sufficiently armed to intelligently explain why she MUST do this...and then get her to agree to at least review her plan with him.
 
Tell her that you're scared...that you need her here for you...that you might inherit this from her...ask her if she would be at peace if you chose this route...
 
And then...if all that fails...then and only then...accept and honour her wishes...
 
And btw I too have a book recommendation on Alternative Cancer Treatments
Cancer Step Outside of the Box by Ty M. Bollinger - supposedly very popular.. 
 
But YOU read it first...It has a real slant against traditional therapies...Drug companies conspiring to keep us just alive enough to keep needing their meds...Hmmmmmm
 
Anyway...
Not exactly what she needs right now..
 
I'm sorry you are faced with this challenge.  Usually it's the parent that has to "let go" and "trust" our children's judgement...you know as they grow into adults.
 
Thank you for coming here.  Tell your mother about us...Maybe we can help.
Love and prayers
Alene
 
 
 


-------------
DX 5/21/2008 TN 8cm TAC
Mast 12/08
Extensive Residual Lymphatic Invasion
Inop node clavicle
68 Rads
Stage IIIc
Recur 11/09 Her2+
Surgery 68 RADS
4/10 Biopsy Skin Mets TN
28 RADS
Stage IV


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 4:17am
To all who have been so supportive; my mom just turned 50, she heard of the Gerson diet from her Dr, not her oncologist. She says that chemo will destroy all her organs and that chemo is a poison that she doesn't want in her body; I understand both sides but hates her decision. I will refer the books that have been suggested and again thank you for the adviceGift%20with%20a%20bow


Posted By: dmayes
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 4:53am
Mysunshine,
 
Your mum has the right to decide what she wants to do, and as a loved one all you can do is to help her through her decision and be there for support.  She knows her body better than anyone else (docs inculded) - and has to be the one to "live" with her decision.
 
Another good book she may wish to read is "The Secret", best wishes to you and her, and sending her plenty of healing energy!
Love Debs


-------------
Debs | Laugh every day, Love every minute.
Dx Mar09 - LB IDC 4.5cm - 0 nodes. BRCA -
Cytoxin/Taxotere x4 end Jul09.
ReCon surgery March10.


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 5:53am
Thumbs%20Upthank you 


Posted By: billie
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 6:35am
Good morning mysunshine,
 
       I am not surprised to know that your mothers dr.is the one to suggest this treatment.I have a friend who was treated for throat cancer over 5 years ago and when I told him about the asparagus puree therapy that I had received in an email,he then told me that when he was going through his treatment of radiation, he asked his oncologist about an alternative. His dr. suggested the asparagus therapy for cancer.
 
      One good thing about your moms dr. suggesting this diet ,is that maybe she will check in with him from time to time to make sure that there is no infection in her body.
 
      My goodness,your mom is very young.My sister was 67 at the time of diagnosis in 08..At the bottom of my postings was her chemo taken along with radiation.and she went through with flying colors and she is in great shape now,a little over a year later.
 
      When I was doing research for my sister about chemo,I too was afraid of it and I still am.I told my sister that I did not want her to do the chemo,It is poisen and I am afraid of chemo.I will never forget her words back to me.Sis,because I am triple negative,I have to do chemo if I want to live and I WANT TO LIVE.So many on this forum have chosen to do the chemo because this is the only thing offered to them for treatment and with triple negs track record of returning and matasitizing,they want  to make sure to at least if in any way possible to get a few more years before it might return or matasitis to other parts of the body.This forum has made the scientist and the dr.s to stand up and take notice to triple negative breast cancer and in a few more years there is a possibility that treatment for triple neg will not consist of chemo.Halelua.In the event that this should happen to any of these ladies, these ladies are trying to do whatever they have to do to try to make sure that they are still around when this break through comes.
 
        Good luck to you and your mom.Please keep us informed as to your moms progress and remember we are also here for you as well..Lots and Lots of Huggggssss    Billie


-------------
Billie posting for sis Betty/67/caucasion female/diagnosed 2-27-08/gradeIII/7mm/invasive ductal carcinoma/T N /clear margins/node neg/4 X's taxotere-cytoxan/36 rads/7-08 PET/CT double image/no cancer


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 6:47am
awww; thanks!!! Hug


Posted By: Lillie
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 7:42am
Good morning mysunshine,

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth. I am new to this site, but not all that new to breast cancer. I was diagnosed with stage IIb triple negative BC in June 2006. 1 positive lymph node. I was 65 years young. I had a mastectomy on June 15, 2006. Began chemo on August 8, 2006. Clinical trial dose dense. ACx4 every other week, then Taxol + gymzar x 4 every other week. Finished chemo November 15, 2006. Went back to work at full time job Jan. 3, 2007. Worked two more years and am now happily retired. I am now 68 years old. My Dr., Surgeon and Oncologist were very supportive of my decisions and I have now had almost 3 years of NED.

Please tell your mother that, the surgery is difficult, the chemo is difficult, but getting NED's for almost 3 years is priceless.

God Bless and good luck with whatever decision is made.

Lillie


Posted By: kirby
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 8:30am
mysusnshine,
 
I was age 45 at dx.  I had 4 rrnds of AC.  I found it to be "not that bad." I continued working all thru tx and managing my household as a single mom to daughters that were 9 & 13.  I do feel that accupuncture was directly responsible for helping maintain my energy levels as I didn't start it until just after the first tx and felt a tremendous difference. I realize that we all don't respond the same to chemo but some of do sail thru it. It is now 8.5 years later. I was unwilling to take chances without some conventional meds. There is a reason they have been developed.


-------------
kirby

dx Feb. 2001. Age 44
Lumpectomy

2cm. no nodes stage 1 grade 3

4 rnds AC, 35 rads


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 8:33am
I know. She will not take any meds or chemo, only the diet. 


Posted By: kirby
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 8:45am
then all you can do is love and support her. Spend as much time as you are able, have all those conversations.
 
I don't mean to be morbid but if you are able ask her feelings on dying. What her wishes may be. My mother was determined to beat Ovarian but had a hard time expressing emotions. Her friend said she could tell when she had been talking to me [about some of these subjects] that she was more open and able to then discuss them with her friend further. My mother did pass away and I really didn't know what she wanted for services. I guess I assumed her husband would know but that was silly on my part because he kept his head buried in the sand more than my mother !
 
Now to try to throw something more positive in..Suzanne Sommers did only alternative tx , I believe, and she is still around. I don't know what kind of cancer she had.  The last I had asked a customer, a friend of hers had chosen alternative and was doing well also.
 


-------------
kirby

dx Feb. 2001. Age 44
Lumpectomy

2cm. no nodes stage 1 grade 3

4 rnds AC, 35 rads


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 13 2009 at 8:51am
that is encouraging... to know. 


Posted By: vickyann
Date Posted: Jul 16 2009 at 6:39pm
i agree with Denise on the numbers. I did chemo.
I hated losing my hair and putting my daughter who is 20 thru the scarey part of seeing me sick from chemo. It is over now ....my hair is back....i feel healthy and i know i made a choice based on the numbers.
My prayers go out to you and i feel it is precious you are brave enough to come here and ask a question i know that scares you. Your mom can do the diet and still do chemo if she decides. You are a good daughter..know in your heart you can not make her do anything. Hang in there sweetie and take care of you.....We are all here if she wants to check us out and we are here for you too...


-------------
Vickyann
Dx Christmas/07
Stage2 Grade 3
no nodule braca neg
lung nodule no growth
TAC x 6 no rad
finished chemo June 08 reconstruction 12/09


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 4:05am
Thank you ; I asked her if she knew the statistics fro not doing chemo, she said the dr told her it only helps about 12% of the patients they did it on...? Sounds funny to me and she said that  she is still considering the surgery late fall but chemo to her is only a few more months to live in a sickly state. she said she wouldnt survive the chemo and that she feels that if she gets her body back into the natural state that God intended it to be in that her body will heal itself. She feels she would rather have a few more months of quqality life instead of sick life. im honstly angry and hurt at the same time, she doesnt know it, but I cant see how Im her only daughter, granted im 29 & have 3 kids, but I feel thath er decision is irrational, and she gets defensive when I even mention the traditional treatments. I love her and I am so saddened thatshe is going thru this. Thank you to whoever started this forum its helping alot!!Pink%20Ribbon


Posted By: alene
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 6:45am
Dear Mysunshine
 
My mother had a breakdown and became a paranoid schizophrenic. with hallucinations  She lived in the streets as a homeless person in Chicago for about 30 years.  She wore mascara under her eyes like a "football player"...so she could growl and scare away the "gangbangers".(her words).. I only saw her about 7 times from the time I was 16 until she had a stroke in a shelter in Florida.  I brought her to Seattle...and placed her in a beautiful nursing home that i worked in.. where she passed away  It was there that we discovered her breast cancer.
 
My mother was especially afraid of doctors..had been involuntarily placed in a mental institution when I was 5 for about 6 months....and told stories of homeless people she knew going into the hospital and never coming back.  She believed that the doctors were killing them to harvest their organs.
 
So...I completely identify with many of the feelings that you are expressing. When she would show up at the bus station...and visit me for a few days...it was so hard.  I wanted to get her help...so I'd try to gain her trust...so if my mother had said that the grass was purple today...I would have said "and what a beautiful color of purple it is". Still she would only stay a few days..have some type of violent outburst and then run away..again..
 
The  last time I spoke to her...before the stroke..I took her to a public place and tried to explain to her...that she needed help.  I told her that I didn't know anyone who had a mother that was homeless...that she was getting older...she was developing severe diabetes...(she thought she had "snakes growing in her legs"...her feet were swelling and turning black)..she needed help..I offered to get her an apartment...she could pick any doctor she wanted...that I was worried she would die in a shelter and I'd never even know what happened to her.
 
She became furious,verbally abusive and violent...needless to say...it didn't end well. 
 
So I really really really understand what it feels like when you can't save someone you love...
 
This is why I reacted so strongly in my first post..."Save her...Save her...Save her from herself...was all I could think" when I read your post...It's what I lived with my whole life...
 
But the truth is...as much as you'd like to...you cannot be your mother's mother...She has "free will"...and gets to make her own choices...whether you agree or not. 
 
Sometimes I felt angry about it.  I understood that she was mentally ill but that didn't change the fact that her choices and fears made me have to grow up with horrible & tragic memories...and live most of my life without a mother...
 
Your mother's choices may in fact lead to her precipitous death...and You can't stop her.  Children that have alcoholic parents go through similar feelings. 
 
I don't know what your relationship is with your mother..but your responses seem as though she is very "powerful" in your life..that when she sets her mind to something...you already know that there's nothing you can do...except...accept it...
 
Perhaps there is a way that you can tell her that you are going to support her choices but convince her to allow that "wonderful" doctor of hers to follow her progress...with periodic diagnostic scans(CAT & MRI,annual whole body PET scan) and bi-monthly blood tests.  In this way...your mother could see for herself whether her choices are working....Since he appears to be "selling alternative treatments"...he should at least assist her with the pain control and antidepressants such as xanax...and meds to help with other side effects...that she will need as her condition worsens.
 
Has she had a PET scan...does she know the extent of her disease yet?
Is she against removing the tumor and affected nodes if any? I was confused by the initial stats that you listed..T1 indicates a small tumor...are you sure that she is stage 3 or was it that she had grade 3 "aggressive" cancer? The only way to know if her plan for alternative therapy is working is to have a clear understanding of where she is now..
 
There is a website that oncologists use that predicts the benefit of chemotherapy at extending survival and recurrence risk..
 
https://www.adjuvantonline.com/online.jsp - https://www.adjuvantonline.com/online.jsp
 
You'll have to register..but it's free...then choose online access and log in..select breast cancer...from the side menu...then version 8.0 standard...then there's a disclaimer page...then you're in...
 
Choose ER- and your mother's stats for age,nodes, grade, health and tumor size..Choose the prognostic button and calculate for high risk...Leave horm therapy alone...we don't benefit from that..and you can't deselect it...under chemo..choose Third Generation..You can toggle between mortality...and relapse...and it will show you graphs..with chemo treatment...and without..
 
It's really designed for ER+ breast cancer but I read that it could be used as a general guide by TN gals...it's just a little optimistic...You can also use it to see her ongoing risk as her tumor increases in size...
 
I'm so sorry that you are going through this.  You have my love and prayers that your mother's choices for alternative treatment will in fact work.  You are not alone...It's a long journey...We are here for you...Come here and blow off steam...ask questions...cry in frustration or just chat...We care...
 
Lots of love
Alene


-------------
DX 5/21/2008 TN 8cm TAC
Mast 12/08
Extensive Residual Lymphatic Invasion
Inop node clavicle
68 Rads
Stage IIIc
Recur 11/09 Her2+
Surgery 68 RADS
4/10 Biopsy Skin Mets TN
28 RADS
Stage IV


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 7:24am
wow! Alene thank you. Sorry to hear about your mom, that was hard I know. The stats are the ones she gave, she did say it was aggressive. I don't understand what any of this means , Ive tried to do research on it but come up short handed, I will check my email for the last visit, she said that the tumor were larger I will copy & paste the results.                  


Posted By: colleen
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 12:21pm
Keep us posted on ur mom susnshine.  I would very much like to hear of her progress.  Peace.

-------------
Colleen
DIAX 4/08 age 49 Stage 1C, 1.8 cm, IDC, Grade 3 Lumpect 5/08
rads 33 end 8/08
no lymph node 0/4 BRCA 1/2neg
no chemo
< stress
> nutrition
9.11 N.E.D


Posted By: trip2
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 12:33pm
Sunshine, do you have a copy of your mother's pathology report?  If not then you can get one and use that to look online, there are several reliable websites that will show you what everything means.

-------------
Stage 2 2003
Stage 1 2007
BRCA 1+


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 12:36pm
I don't have a copy of her report, just what she emailed me  which was Tn Bc aggressive, grade 3, stage 111a, T1, c, N-1, MO. She has emailed me the tumor size, I am still looking for the email that had the diamater sizes in them


Posted By: billie
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 5:39pm
Hi Mysunshine,
   
       I am so in hopes that the size of her tumor is the size of the member that was practically insisting that she be told to do chemo even though her oncologist and a board of oncologist were telling her that hers was so small that they did not see any reason that she should do the chemo.I cannot remember the members name at this time ,but I am sure that there are other members that remember her also.
      Wouldn't that be a blessing!!!Wow.
 
      And Alene,You are such a strong and beatiful woman to have tried all those different things to help your mom and yet you are still having to deal with so much difficulties for your self.But you know what!It is in my life time that I can accept or even walk away from something if I know in my heart that I have given and done everything that I could possibly think of to do before I gave up.And lady it sounds as if you did everything that you could possibly think to do for your mother.You are so so so right.As the old saying goes,You can lead your horse to water,but YOU cannot make him drink.


-------------
Billie posting for sis Betty/67/caucasion female/diagnosed 2-27-08/gradeIII/7mm/invasive ductal carcinoma/T N /clear margins/node neg/4 X's taxotere-cytoxan/36 rads/7-08 PET/CT double image/no cancer


Posted By: billie
Date Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 6:01pm
  
 
 
     Oh and Alene,isn't this a wonderful place where you can come and just poor your heart out.This forum is priceless and is a blessing for so so many of us.So so many that really in truly care about others and what kind of a day they are having.
 
           Lots and lots of Huggggsss to all   Billie
 
    


-------------
Billie posting for sis Betty/67/caucasion female/diagnosed 2-27-08/gradeIII/7mm/invasive ductal carcinoma/T N /clear margins/node neg/4 X's taxotere-cytoxan/36 rads/7-08 PET/CT double image/no cancer


Posted By: alene
Date Posted: Jul 18 2009 at 1:29am

Dear Mysunshine

Sorry it took so long to get back to you... It took a while to come up with the T1c....most of us...just list T1..
 
I can only assume that your mother got this information from a pathology report...after a lumpectomy or a mastectomy?
 
I'll try to decipher some of the code for you
 
You wrote:
Tn Bc aggressive, grade 3, stage 111a,
 
Let's take it in chunks:
 
Tn Bc aggressive: Triple Negative Breast cancer which is aggressive
 
Grade 3: High Grade (this is one time when getting high grades...isn't good)  High Grade cancers are faster growing and more likely to spread...About 66% of us Triple Negative gals get High Grades..
 
You wrote  T1, c, N-1, MO. Lets try this T1c N1 M0 (as in zero)
 
T1c: Tumor more than 1.0 cm but not more than 2.0 cm in greatest dimension (about 3/4 inches or maybe close to 1 inch - not good with metrics)
N1:  Cancer has spread to 1 to 3 axillary (underarm) lymph node(s)-most likely
and/or tiny amounts of cancer are found in internal mammary lymph nodes (those near the breast bone) on sentinel lymph node biopsy.
M0: No distant metastasis
 
It looks like I skipped stage..but actually the above information is what determines the stage...
 
You wrote Stage IIIa however as you can see below..
Stage IIA: T0, N1, M0 / T1, N1, M0 / T2, N0, M0 falls into Stage IIA
 
However back to my original assumption...this info is from a pathology report...The pathologist hasn't seen your mother.. just her cancer..
 
Her doctor has seen her..and may have changed her N1 to N3
BECAUSE one of the below statements is true...
 
Stage IIIC: T0-4, N3, M0: The tumor is any size (or can't be found), and one of the following applies:
Cancer has spread to 10 or more axillary lymph nodes. -Not Likely..the pathologist would have caught this one...
Cancer has spread to the lymph nodes under the clavicle (collar bone).
Cancer has spread to the lymph nodes above the clavicle.
Cancer involves axillary lymph nodes and has enlarged the internal mammary lymph nodes.
Cancer has spread to 4 or more axillary lymph nodes, and tiny amounts of cancer are found in internal mammary lymph nodes on sentinel lymph node biopsy.  -Not Likely..the pathologist would have caught this one too...
The cancer hasn't spread to distant sites or M0
 
Could your mom be Stage IIIa.?..sure but we've got something wrong in the details then...like either tumor size (T1c)...or Node involvment(N1)...the best way to know is look at the path report.
 
So to Summarize:
According to the stats you listed your mom is a Stage IIA however
Your mother should know from her discussions with her doctor if her cancer has spread to under her clavicle/supraclavicular or mammary node area which would make her indeed a Stage 3c...It is possible that she is a stage IIIa..but that means we've got a wrong tumor size or node involvment.

A lot to digest I know...remember knowledge is power...the only way to know if a treatment is working...is to know where your mother is now.and to follow up regularly with diagnostic tests..

Hugs and prayers
Alene
 
and Billie thank you so much for your kind thoughts...I too am so glad that we have this forum...it's truly a life vest in some pretty stormy seas.
 


-------------
DX 5/21/2008 TN 8cm TAC
Mast 12/08
Extensive Residual Lymphatic Invasion
Inop node clavicle
68 Rads
Stage IIIc
Recur 11/09 Her2+
Surgery 68 RADS
4/10 Biopsy Skin Mets TN
28 RADS
Stage IV


Posted By: vickyann
Date Posted: Jul 18 2009 at 12:54pm
rom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sunshine this is something i found for you..hope it helps

Max Gerson ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_18 - 18 October http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1881 - 1881 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_8 - 8 March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959 - 1959 ) was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany - German http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician - physician who developed the Gerson Therapy, an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine - alternative dietary therapy which he claimed could cure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer - cancer and most chronic, degenerative diseases. Gerson described his approach in the book A Cancer Therapy: Results of 50 Cases. However, when Gerson's claims were independently evaluated by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Cancer_Institute - National Cancer Institute , it was found that Gerson's records lacked the basic information necessary to systematically evaluate his claims, and the patients who were "cured" by his treatment were also receiving standard, effective medical treatment simultaneously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson#cite_note-nci-0 - [1] The therapy is considered scientifically unsupported and potentially hazardous, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson#cite_note-ACS-1 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson#cite_note-mskcc-2 - [3] and has been blamed for the deaths of patients who substituted it for standard medical care. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gerson#cite_note-davis-3 - [4]


-------------
Vickyann
Dx Christmas/07
Stage2 Grade 3
no nodule braca neg
lung nodule no growth
TAC x 6 no rad
finished chemo June 08 reconstruction 12/09


Posted By: trip2
Date Posted: Jul 18 2009 at 2:20pm
Thanks Vickyann,
 
There is information regarding the Gersen diet in the top post of the News/Resource section put out by Johns Hopkins.


-------------
Stage 2 2003
Stage 1 2007
BRCA 1+


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 4:38am
thank you for the break down in the reports. Im not sure of which of that is right it's super confusing. But she has not had a lumpectomy or mammogram. This is so true for this site, it is so helpful!!!


Posted By: kikidan
Date Posted: Jul 21 2009 at 4:46pm
Hi Sunshine,
 
I actually spent some time with Charlotte Gerson when she came to my chiropractic college in the mid-90's.  She is Max Gerson's daughter and taught some of the protocol. 
 
After spending the weekend with her. I was convinced that I would do her father's protocol before doing chemo, radiation, etc.  In fact, during her lectures, she asked if anyone in the audience had been to the Gerson clinic. (2 years in a row she gave lectures at the college which was located in the middle of nowhere in upstate NY and we advertised the lectures to the general public).  Each year, several survivors came to the lectures.
 
However, flash forward 12 years to my own diagnosis 6/2008.  I did NOT do her protocol.  It is such a specific protocol that needs to be followed to the absolute finest detail.  Even as far as the juicer that is necessary.  You have to have a specific type of motor, etc.  Without following every SINGLE, minute detail, you cannot expect the protocol to work.  Therefore, I knew that i would not be able to follow it.
 
If your Mom is insisting on using Gerson's protocol, I IMPLORE you, with every cell of my being, that you get your mother out to California to see Gerson's doctors.  Nobody should pick up her texts and try to implement this program without professionals that have been trained by Charlotte and her doctors.  Your mother needs a great deal of support to implement this program.
 
Otherwise, all of us would do well to follow Charlotte's advice: no sugar, low protein, vegetables and fruits, rest, coffee enemas (also done by a very strict protocol), etc.
 
She has a website with a link to a doctor that has a Gerson hospital in California.  PM me if you cannot find it.  I can get you the phone number.  Good Luck to your Mom.....Kiki


Posted By: alene
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 2:54am

Hi Sunshine:

You are right it is very very confusing...welcome to the world of "breast cancer treatment"...I feel like I had to graduate a "crash" medical school course...just to understand what was happening to me...
 
Am I right in understanding you  that your mother  has not had a "mastectomy" or a "lumpectomy"...no surgery yet?
 
Does "biopsy" sound familiar?...Did she have a biopsy in say a "surgeon's office?
 
Is your mother against testing like a PET scan?
(Explanation - painless outpatient scan - Looks at the whole body...would let your mother really know the extent of her cancer...It may have spread beyond her breast..as it did in mine)
 


-------------
DX 5/21/2008 TN 8cm TAC
Mast 12/08
Extensive Residual Lymphatic Invasion
Inop node clavicle
68 Rads
Stage IIIc
Recur 11/09 Her2+
Surgery 68 RADS
4/10 Biopsy Skin Mets TN
28 RADS
Stage IV


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 4:02am
I will let my mom know about the Dr's in California. My mom has a biopsy and I apologize for not posting the exact email of the size of the tumors she emailed me I guess it got erased although I'm not sure how....? But yes I beleive she did have a scan I dont knoe if it that specific one; she has heart problems and they tested her heart to make sure she would be able to take the chemo even though she still will never do it.  


Posted By: colleen
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 5:02am
Sunshine it is ok 2 NOT take the chemo.  Most on this site do not agree with me, but I said no.  I feel I just have 2 say that as there are many advocates for chemo as the solution to the problem.  I admire your mother for being her own case study.  I send her well wishes!  Om shanti!

-------------
Colleen
DIAX 4/08 age 49 Stage 1C, 1.8 cm, IDC, Grade 3 Lumpect 5/08
rads 33 end 8/08
no lymph node 0/4 BRCA 1/2neg
no chemo
< stress
> nutrition
9.11 N.E.D


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 5:04am
hugs , thank youHug


Posted By: mainsailset
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 5:57am
Mysunshine, what a road you have to travel, I think this is perhaps one of life's most difficult challenges, to love a parent enough to help out but respect them enough to stand by them even when they are choosing a different path of treatment than medical wisdom tells us is best.
 
Because cancer invades and then stomps on our own ability to walk through life most of us are continually struggling to retrieve some semblance of our 'old lives', to regain control and hold the reins of our fate. I totally understand your mother's stance, what she is doing takes alot of courage. Every aspect of the battle against cancer takes courage and strength no matter which path one chooses. So I applaud her courage.
 
As many here have already encouraged, knowledge is really the best power to grease the wheels of success, you can never have enough, but it is exhausting on a daily basis. A friend of mine was diagnosed the same day as me, he chose to go on the diet and regime your mom is on. It became pretty much a religion with him, he was so dedicated. After 3 months he was exhausted, had lost a great deal of weight and his brother talked him into Cancer Care. He agreed because of their approach which included not just the chemo, radiation but the whole picture of spiritual, and alternative medicine, massage and just plain caring. He is getting better, we feel he now has a chance.
 
My point is that when one goes in to a doctor's office, sometimes it is just so clinical that a patient can feel that they have already lost the battle. One only has to go to the CarynRose thread and read how her caregivers have gone out of their way to give her well rounded, complex and innovative care.
 
You are in such a tough position but I wouldn't be surprised if you mom comes to you one day soon for advice on something different. You'll be ready, you already are.


-------------
dx 7/08 TN 14x6.5x5.5 cm tumor

3 Lymph nodes involved, Taxol/Sunitab+AC, 5/09 dbl masectomy, path 2mm tumor removed, lymphs all clear, RAD 32 finished 9/11/09. 9/28 CT clear 10/18/10 CT clear


Posted By: mysunshine
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 6:10am
true, thank you Cry


Posted By: vickyann
Date Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 7:30pm
Crying lets the pain out so you can breathe....
Hang in there sunshine...
Look how many of us are still here.....
You might want to show your mom your posts so she reads your concern and know how you are feeling..... It could open up communication..
We all care.....


-------------
Vickyann
Dx Christmas/07
Stage2 Grade 3
no nodule braca neg
lung nodule no growth
TAC x 6 no rad
finished chemo June 08 reconstruction 12/09


Posted By: alene
Date Posted: Jul 23 2009 at 12:29am
Hi mysunshine
 
Here's a link to the Gerson Institute website..specifically the page at finding clinics, practitioners and support groups..
 
http://gerson.org/about/approved_referral.asp - http://gerson.org/about/approved_referral.asp
 
They also have a telephone information service below:
Gerson Client Service is available from 9 A.M. to 5 P.M. (PST) M-F. (619) 685-5353 or mailto:info@gerson.org - info@gerson.org . U.S. residents can contact us by calling toll free on 888-4-GERSON.
 
 
The American Cancer Society has deemed the Gerson diet as Questionable - Here's what I found from the ACS...

Gerson Method

Proponents of the Gerson diet claim that cancer can be cured only if toxins are eliminated from the body. They recommend "detoxification" with frequent coffee enemas and a low-sodium diet that includes more than a gallon a day of juices made from fruits, vegetables, and raw calf's liver. This method was developed by Max Gerson, a German-born physician who emigrated to the United States in 1936 and practiced in New York City until his death in 1959. Gerson therapy is still available at Hospital Meridien in Tijuana, Mexico and, since February 1997, at the Gerson Healing Center in Sedona, Arizona.

Gerson therapy is still actively promoted by his daughter, Charlotte Gerson, through lectures, talk show appearances, and publications of the Gerson Institute in Bonita, California. Gerson protocols have included liver extract injections, ozone enemas, "live cell therapy," thyroid tablets, royal jelly capsules, linseed oil, castor oil enemas, clay packs, laetrile, and vaccines made from influenza virus and killed Staphylococcus aureus bacteria.

In 1947, the NCI reviewed ten cases selected by Dr. Gerson and found his report unconvincing. That same year, a committee appointed by the New York County Medical Society reviewed records of 86 patients, examined ten patients, and found no evidence that the Gerson method had value in treating cancer. An NCI analysis of Dr. Gerson's book A Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases concluded in 1959 that most of the cases failed to meet the criteria (such as histologic verification of cancer) for proper evaluation of a cancer case [16]. A recent review of the Gerson treatment rationale concluded: (a) the "poisons" Gerson claimed to be present in processed foods have never been identified, (b) frequent coffee enemas have never been shown to mobilize and remove poisons from the liver and intestines of cancer patients, (c) there is no evidence that any such poisons are related to the onset of cancer, (d) there is no evidence that a "healing" inflammatory reaction exists that can seek out and kill cancer cells [17].

Between 1980 and 1986 at least 13 patients treated with Gerson therapy were admitted to San Diego area hospitals with Campylobacter fetus sepsis attributable to the liver injections [18]. None of the patients was cancer-free, and one died of his malignancy within a week. Five were comatose due to low serum sodium levels, presumably as a result of the "no sodium" Gerson dietary regimen. As a result, Gerson personnel modified their techniques for handling raw liver products and biologicals. However, the Gerson approach still has considerable potential for harm. Deaths also have been attributed to the coffee enemas administered at the Tijuana clinic.

Charlotte Gerson claims that treatment at the clinic has produced high cure rates for many cancers. In 1986, however, investigators learned that patients were not monitored after they left the facility [19]. Although clinic personnel later said they would follow their patients systematically, there is no published evidence that they have done so. A naturopath who visited the Gerson Clinic in 1983 was able to track 21 patients over a 5-year period (or until death) through annual letters or phone calls. At the 5-year mark, only one was still alive (but not cancer-free); the rest had succumbed to their cancer [20].

 
The link to the full document is here:
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:xsI84DQ1TIYJ:www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html+%2Bgerson+%2Bdiet+%2Bcancer+%2Bsurgery&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us - http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:xsI84DQ1TIYJ:www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html+%2Bgerson+%2Bdiet+%2Bcancer+%2Bsurgery&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
 
Remember this just falls under..knowledge is power..the more you know...the more you can tell your mom to watch out for these problems with the regimen. 
 
Lots of hugs
Alene
 


-------------
DX 5/21/2008 TN 8cm TAC
Mast 12/08
Extensive Residual Lymphatic Invasion
Inop node clavicle
68 Rads
Stage IIIc
Recur 11/09 Her2+
Surgery 68 RADS
4/10 Biopsy Skin Mets TN
28 RADS
Stage IV


Posted By: alene
Date Posted: Jul 23 2009 at 12:57am
Gerson also has a FAQ page...Look below...Gerson may advocate that your mother have the tumour removed... and/or radiation...and sometimes chemo...(Your mom's tumour is grade 3 - aggressive/fast-moving - using Gerson's terms)
 
In addition their testimonial page for breast cancer...lists 3 cases..2 of which clearly indicate that the patient had the tumour removed..
 
All good reasons to contact them...and discuss your mother's case further.
 
Page from their FAQ below:
Can I do the therapy and Chemo or Radiation therapy at the same time?

There are a few instances where chemotherapy is of limited benefit. These include cases of Acute Leukemia, Testicular cancer, and fast-moving cancers where it is beneficial to quickly, if temporarily, stop the cancer so that a non-toxic intervention can be used. Under these circumstances, the Gerson Physicians occasionally recommend using both the full intensive Gerson therapy and chemotherapy together, if the patient starts the Gerson protocol first and is carefully monitored by a doctor. This is not a frequent occurrence with our patients, but it is an option for some. While we do not recommend it except in rare, specific circumstances, if a patient insists of doing chemotherapy concurrently with the Gerson Therapy, there is no reason why it cannot be done. In such a case we recommend that the Gerson Therapy be started prior to chemotherapy, and that the patient be monitored by an experienced Gerson Therapy doctor. Radiation therapy is often effective for relief of bone pain or to shrink a tumor to facilitate surgical removal. While it does have some negative effects, radiation, used judiciously, can be an appropriate addition to the Gerson Therapy.



-------------
DX 5/21/2008 TN 8cm TAC
Mast 12/08
Extensive Residual Lymphatic Invasion
Inop node clavicle
68 Rads
Stage IIIc
Recur 11/09 Her2+
Surgery 68 RADS
4/10 Biopsy Skin Mets TN
28 RADS
Stage IV



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