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gpawelski
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Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 3:56pm |
dmwolf
Avastin as a single agent is relatively ineffective in virtually all tumor types other than Renal because it is known to be driven by the vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) pathway. Beyond that, it appears largely to better deliver the effects of other classes of drugs.
Avastin may have the potential to improve the efficacy of standard combination chemotherapy. The combination of Avastin with other conventional standard therapy may be promising, particularly with regard to safety and efficacy.
Tumor growth is dependent on angiogenesis. Angiogenesis is dependent on VEGF. Anti-angiogenesis drugs like Avastin work by blocking the activity of VEGF to prevent the growth of new capillaries into the tumor and thereby sustain tumor growth.
Avastin directly binds to VEGF to directly inhibit angiogenesis, by choking off the blood vessels that provide a tumor with oxygen and nutrients. Tumors which secrete relatively low levels of VEGF, might be more susceptible to an agent like Avastin which works by blocking VEGF (its effects upon endothelial cells which make up blood vessels).
In cell culture analysis, which actually assesses the direct or indirect effect of a drug upon the cell, whether it is a tumor cell or an endothelial cell, VEGF happens to be the molecule which has been implicated in the process of Avastin on endothelial cells. Drugs like Avastin have striking anti-microvascular effects but minimal anti-tumor effects. That is the reason giving Avastin with combination anti-tumor agents.
If it were the only protein involved, then one would expect that VEGF expression would correlate with Avastin activity 100% of the time, but it was studied that it actually does so only about 20% of the time, and it may not be the only protein involved. There are other clinically-available anti-angiogenesis drugs that have been shown to have anti-vascular activity.
Whether VEGF acts alone (unlikely) or in combination with other proteins and other mechanical factors, it would be more beneficial to assess the net effect of all those factors.
Physicians may have to combine several targeted treatments to try an achieve cures or durable reponses for more complicated tumors like those that occur in the breast, colon and lung. The trick is figuring out which patients will respond, and the challenge is to figure out which patients to give these drugs to.
In cancer medicine, it's not a case of throwing targeted drugs at the problem. It's knowing "what" targeted drugs and "how" to use them in "individual" patients (not average populations).
Conclusions of a recent study had shown that Avastin + Tykerb may be the first clinically-exploitable antivascular drug combination. High dose, intermittent 'bolus' schedules of Tykerb to coincide with Avastin administration may be clinically advantageous, even in Her2-negative tumors (J Intern Med 264:275-287, September 2008).
The system utilized for the study was a functional profiling assay, which can be adapted for simple, inexpensive and sensitive/specific detection of tissue and circulating microvascular cells in a variety of solid-tumor cancer conditions.
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Gregory D. Pawelski
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unklez
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Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 5:59pm |
Dear Greg, I don't understand this post on Avastin as it relates to the mammo guidelines. Could you please summarize please?
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Wife Dx: Jul/09. Age: 37. Size: 3cm. BRCA: -ve. Lumpectomy: Aug/09. Micromet 1/9 node. Chemo Start: Sep/09. E5103. DD ACB-> DD Abraxane (Taxol reaction). Zometa (S0307). Canadian Fraction Rads.
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gpawelski
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Posted: Dec 03 2009 at 10:48pm |
unklez
dmwolf posted on this thread that Avastin is an antiangiogenesis drug. Angiogenesis means to grow new blood vessels. In order for a tumor to grow beyond a certain size it must be vascularized. The faster it can vascularize, the faster it can grow. Cell division isn't the only thing a tumor needs to do to grow.
Avastin is a drug that prevents angiogenesis and therefor makes it more difficult for tumors to grow, but it doesn't kill or destroy any blood vessels so it will not shrink or kill tumors. It'll just keep them where they are.
So tell me, how exactly is such a drug going to get rid of any tiny metastasis floating around in your body? It won't. So basically some guy went and got a PhD and then wasted his time and someone's money proving something that should be common sense. Why did he do this? Well, it's because there are a lot of people out there who have spent time and money to obtain a PhD who still lack common sense.
I explained to dmwolf the nuances of Avastin.
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Gregory D. Pawelski
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mainsailset
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Posted: Dec 04 2009 at 10:20am |
I can't find the link, but it appears the ladies of the Senate have been on fire this week with amendments to the Health care bill on mammos. Sounds like one of the new amendments will assure that payment for mammos will be always be covered by insurance. Ah ha! Here's a link, even better than I had hoped http://abcnews.go.com/Health/OnCallPlusBreastCancerNews/senate-affirms-screening-mammography-40-year-olds/story?id=9243563
Go Senate Ladies!
Edited by mainsailset - Dec 04 2009 at 10:22am
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dx 7/08 TN 14x6.5x5.5 cm tumor
3 Lymph nodes involved, Taxol/Sunitab+AC, 5/09 dbl masectomy, path 2mm tumor removed, lymphs all clear, RAD 32 finished 9/11/09. 9/28 CT clear 10/18/10 CT clear
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123Donna
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Posted: Dec 04 2009 at 7:21pm |
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I heard about the amendments guaranteeing mammos in the new health bill. Great news and I'm glad those senate ladies are fighting for us. Maybe the new guidelines were a blessing in disguise. It seems it backfired on their recommendations and created such a firestorm of anger.
Donnna
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DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09) 11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15
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mainsailset
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Posted: Dec 05 2009 at 12:25pm |
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Agreed Donna, just think what might have happened if the whole health care thing wasn't on the front burner! Hopefully, panels like this will undergo some kind of structural change so that their stats will have to undergo a full vetting before they're incorporated into anything. I keep thinking about the smaller types of cancer that don't have access to a big voice like breast cancer does and how they may be subjected to being statistically dismissed.
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dx 7/08 TN 14x6.5x5.5 cm tumor
3 Lymph nodes involved, Taxol/Sunitab+AC, 5/09 dbl masectomy, path 2mm tumor removed, lymphs all clear, RAD 32 finished 9/11/09. 9/28 CT clear 10/18/10 CT clear
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Captain
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 9:20am |
This is my first post in this Forum but I have been lurking for about a month now. My 38 year old wife was diagnosed with TNBC in October and is being treated by Dr. Eric Winer at Dana Farber in Boston. When we started this journey I made it my job to research everything that we were told and to question everything (that's my nature- I was never the teachers' favorite student in school). After landing in the caring hands of Dr. Winer and his team, I have been able to relax and trust completely. I must admit that I was perplexed and a little furious when I read the new guidelines last month. Many of our friends were up-in-arms and contacted me (it seems that I am now the de facto breast cancer expert in our circle of friends/family) asking for my opinion. I decided to hold comment until my wife's next onc appointment, which was the day before Thanksgiving. After the exam (3cm tumor shrunk to less-than-palpable after only 2 Avastin and 1 A/C  ) I asked Dr. Winer his opinion on the new guidelines. I'm not a reporter and took no notes, but I was convinced by his agreement and explanation so I'd like to share them: He basically said that the guidelines, while valid, were communicated poorly to the public. He explained that young breasts (i.e.- younger than 49) are typically too dense for a mammogram to accurately decipher what is being seen, thus leading to many unnecassary and invasive procedures. He did acknowledge the small percentage of detection/deaths the study stated between the ages of 40-49 but explained that those numbers are slightly innacurate, and spoke of conversations he has had with colleagues around the world. (again, I didn't take notes; I just TRUST him). I conceded the point on mammograms but asked how in the world it could be reasonable to ask women to stop performing self-exams, since they were free and simple to perform. He responded that this was another breakdown in how the recommendation was communicated; he believes that self-breast exams are still important, but the issue is the word "Routine". He then told us about a study done by a Chinese colleague (where, his colleague said, they were sure that the participants did as instructed because "they are Chinese"  ). The study showed that there was no difference in early tumor discovery between women who were instructed how to perform routine monthly exams and those women who weren't. As we know, TN is aggressive, grows quickly, and is often found in young, pre-meopausal women (i.e. the women effected by the new guidelines). He told us that women (or anyone for that matter) just need to be aware of what is going on with their bodies. If you have a toothache you go to the dentist rather than waiting for your annual checkup; you don't need to be taught to check your teeth for pain. Again, I am no expert about bc but trust in Dr. Winer and his talented team; so much that we have temporarily relocated from Florida to New England (I have a wonderful and understanding boss) and will forever more have our follow-up appointments at Dana Farber. These are just my 2-cents based on our conversation.
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123Donna
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 9:35am |
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Captain,
Welcome to this forum and we're glad you joined. Please keep us posted on your dw's progress.
Donna
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DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09) 11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15
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mainsailset
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 10:38am |
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Hi Captain, and a big Welcome! One of my fondest hopes is that somehow when ALL of us make it out the other side of this, again healthy and strong, that somehow we will get to reuse all our braincells that we've invested to understand this terrible beast! Take care.
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dx 7/08 TN 14x6.5x5.5 cm tumor
3 Lymph nodes involved, Taxol/Sunitab+AC, 5/09 dbl masectomy, path 2mm tumor removed, lymphs all clear, RAD 32 finished 9/11/09. 9/28 CT clear 10/18/10 CT clear
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unklez
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 11:42am |
Dear Captain, Thanks for sharing your respected oncologist's comments on the guidelines. I have a few comments on what you narrated from Dr. Winer.
1. The guidelines are based on statistics and cost. They don't take into account individual bodies. For example, younger women have dense breasts in general but this is not universally true. So maybe the guidelines should be to do 1 mammo in women after 40, check for density and determine the usefulness of mammos in each woman and do the follow up mammos accordingly. For those that mammos are not useful, MRI's or some other form of testing must be established.
2. Younger women get more aggressive cancers that are more often presented as interval tumors and not on routine scans, in general but again this is not universally true. What about the intermediate grades?
3. There are big differences between teeth and breasts. For the most part, teeth problems are not life threatening. Dentists film their patient's teeth, advice them to brush twice daily starting at 3 years, and perform 6 monthly check-up and cleaning.
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Wife Dx: Jul/09. Age: 37. Size: 3cm. BRCA: -ve. Lumpectomy: Aug/09. Micromet 1/9 node. Chemo Start: Sep/09. E5103. DD ACB-> DD Abraxane (Taxol reaction). Zometa (S0307). Canadian Fraction Rads.
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mainsailset
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 12:04pm |
Interestingly I think all of this misses a big point. When we're kids our moms and dads hopefully have insurance that covers us; moms drag their kids to checkups, get our innoculations taken care of and generally keep us inside the medical community tent.
Then kids go out into the world. More often than not, they travel forward in their lives without insurance until they start having kids themselves, often into their 30's.
My point is that there is no cultural sense of framework for baseline health. One goes to the doctor for a particular ailment, not for an annual physical in their 20's or 30's, at least not enough of us.
I would not be surprised if we found that in areas under insured that we found women out there who didn't know what a mammo was.
So it's a signal that our health care issues are Provider driven not Culturally driven. We do what we're allowed to do. I know when I buy a car the owner's manual tells me to change the oil and filters, gives me a maintenance schedule complete with mileage. Until I got cancer, I just can't remember anyone ever talking to me about a schedule for changing my oil...unless you count talk about pap smears of course.
Anyway, if we're to rely on being familiar with our own bodies in order to go in for a check up, perhaps a broader discussion from doctors of what knowing actually means would be in order.
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dx 7/08 TN 14x6.5x5.5 cm tumor
3 Lymph nodes involved, Taxol/Sunitab+AC, 5/09 dbl masectomy, path 2mm tumor removed, lymphs all clear, RAD 32 finished 9/11/09. 9/28 CT clear 10/18/10 CT clear
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trip2
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 12:16pm |
Hello Captain and welcome.
Wow so lucky to be in the hands of Dr. Winer and what great news about your wife's tumor shrinking already!
Thank you for sharing your discussion with Dr. Winer, it's interesting to hear his view.
Please keep us posted on how your wife is doing, we wish her well and will provide support or help anyway that we can.
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Stage 2 2003
Stage 1 2007
BRCA 1+
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Captain
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 12:25pm |
unklez wrote:
There are big differences between teeth and breasts. For the most part, teeth problems are not life threatening. Dentists film their patient's teeth, advice them to brush twice daily starting at 3 years, and perform 6 monthly check-up and cleaning. |
A fair point on my poor analogy
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unklez
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 12:35pm |
Captain wrote:
unklez wrote:
There are big differences between teeth and breasts. For the most part, teeth problems are not life threatening. Dentists film their patient's teeth, advice them to brush twice daily starting at 3 years, and perform 6 monthly check-up and cleaning. |
A fair point on my poor analogy
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No dear Captain, the analogy is not poor. I could very well have taken the same analogy and tried to explain my view point! This is a highly controversial topic and I have been keeping away deliberately. But I am glad we all can have a civil discussion here without slinging mud on each other and our doctors :-)
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Wife Dx: Jul/09. Age: 37. Size: 3cm. BRCA: -ve. Lumpectomy: Aug/09. Micromet 1/9 node. Chemo Start: Sep/09. E5103. DD ACB-> DD Abraxane (Taxol reaction). Zometa (S0307). Canadian Fraction Rads.
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lady4law
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 2:32pm |
I haven't been posted, or been here, for a few weeks but had to check-in on this subject.
I am shocked, even more so at Dr Love's comments. I will NEVER support anything her organizations or she backs again.
I wonder if her comments influence the State of California. They will now deny mammos to any woman on state aid. (or state paid procedures). That coupled with recommendations for no PAP smears and no follow up CT and PET scans, and we can expect to be see thousands, if not millions, of women dying thanks to these idiots.
Jean
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IBC/TN 6/07 Lymph, Chemo, Mast w/rec, chemo, 2 infect surg, exchg (2x) redo rec (2x) 4 new tumors esophagus, colon, chest, mouth, (10/11- 5th SUV7)"Activity" in spine hip
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mainsailset
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 4:09pm |
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Jean, I'm confused, did you see an article somewhere that said CA would deny women on state aid any mammos or state pd procedures? And I guess I missed it, but when did the recommendations for no PAP smears or follow up CT & PET come in to play? Thanks
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dx 7/08 TN 14x6.5x5.5 cm tumor
3 Lymph nodes involved, Taxol/Sunitab+AC, 5/09 dbl masectomy, path 2mm tumor removed, lymphs all clear, RAD 32 finished 9/11/09. 9/28 CT clear 10/18/10 CT clear
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gpawelski
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Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 4:10pm |
Eleven Health & Prevention Organizations Defend USPSTF, Mammogram Recommendations in Letter to Congress
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Gregory D. Pawelski
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123Donna
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Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 9:39pm |
lady4law wrote:
I am shocked, even more so at Dr Love's comments. I will NEVER support anything her organizations or she backs again.
Jean |
Me too! I sent an email to Dr. Love's Army of Women campaign and told them to remove me. Apparently, they were swamped with the same request from many other women. Donna
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DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09) 11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15
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123Donna
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Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 9:47pm |
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I saw my primary dr today for a physical. Without bringing the subject up, he went off on a long speech about the ridiculousness of the new guidelines. He believes it was all cost driven. He'd rather see a thousand women get screened even if only a few would be dx with bc. It is worth it if it even saves just one life! I know more doctors feel the same as we do. Yeah!!
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DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09) 11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15
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unklez
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Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 11:00pm |
Dear Donna, He knew which side his bread is buttered!
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Wife Dx: Jul/09. Age: 37. Size: 3cm. BRCA: -ve. Lumpectomy: Aug/09. Micromet 1/9 node. Chemo Start: Sep/09. E5103. DD ACB-> DD Abraxane (Taxol reaction). Zometa (S0307). Canadian Fraction Rads.
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