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NINASUZIE
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Topic: Chemo first or Surgery? Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 7:47am |
Hi Ladies,
I have been dx for 10 wks and after setting up my surgery, the doctor left the practice and it's taking time to get another surgeon to be available. I had a surgical consult and it will take awhile to set the bilateral surgery up as they use 2 surgeons, 3 if I have reconstruction started. She recommended chemo first because of the likely 4 week delay in surgery.
The surgeon, my oncologist and my primary MD are all urging me not to wait any longer and start chemo first now, which could start this week. I had made my decision to have the primary tumor removed first as my strong preference, even having a bilateral mastectomy-now that's causing delays in treatment starting unless I go with a one sided mastectomy.
The surgery will take 2-4 weeks to set up. The oncologist says-CHEMO IS THE TREATMENT FOR TNBC-start this week. No "surival rate" differences between chemo before or after surgery. If I have surgery first, healing will delay chemo by 4-6 weeks.
I have to let the oncologist know by Tuesday what my decision is. I do not want to delay treatment. I also have put alot of my life on hold and is chemo THE treatment for us? If so, I would try and switch my thinking.
I trust the feedback on this site and it would help to get some answers so I can make my best decision...thanks and hugs,
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Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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cg---
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 9:07am |
J Clin Oncol. 2008 Feb 4;: 18250347 ( P, S, G, E, B)
[My paper] Cornelia Liedtke, Chafika Mazouni, Kenneth R Hess, Fabrice André, Attila Tordai, Jaime A Mejia, W Fraser Symmans, Ana M Gonzalez-Angulo, Bryan Hennessy, Marjorie Green, Massimo Cristofanilli, Gabriel N Hortobagyi, Lajos Pusztai
Departments of Breast Medical Oncology, Biostatistics and Applied Mathematics, and Pathology, The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX; Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, University of Münster, Münster, Germany; Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Marseille Public Hospital System, Marseille; and Breast Cancer Unit and Translational Research Unit UPRES03535, Institut Gustave Roussy, Villejuif, France.
PURPOSE: Triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC) is defined by the lack of estrogen receptor (ER), progesterone receptor (PR), and human epidermal growth factor receptor 2 (HER-2) expression. In this study, we compared response to neoadjuvant chemotherapy and survival between patients with TNBC and non-TNBC. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Analysis of a prospectively collected clinical database was performed. We included 1,118 patients who received neoadjuvant chemotherapy at M.D. Anderson Cancer Center for stage I-III breast cancer from 1985 to 2004 and for whom complete receptor information were available. Clinical and pathologic parameters, pathologic complete response rates (pCR), survival measurements, and organ-specific relapse rates were compared between patients with TNBC and non-TNBC. RESULTS: Two hundred fifty-five patients (23%) had TNBC. Patients with TNBC compared with non-TNBC had significantly higher pCR rates (22% v 11%; P =.034), but decreased 3-year progression-free survival rates (P <.0001) and 3-year overall survival (OS) rates (P <.0001). TNBC was associated with increased risk for visceral metastases (P =.0005), lower risk for bone recurrence (P =.027), and shorter postrecurrence survival (P <.0001). Recurrence and death rates were higher for TNBC only in the first 3 years. If pCR was achieved, patients with TNBC and non-TNBC had similar survival (P =.24). In contrast, patients with residual disease (RD) had worse OS if they had TNBC compared with non-TNBC (P <.0001). CONCLUSION: Patients with TNBC have increased pCR rates compared with non-TNBC, and those with pCR have excellent survival. However, patients with RD after neoadjuvant chemotherapy have significantly worse survival if they have TNBC compared with non-TNBC, particularly in the first 3 years.
Chemotherapy
Triple-negative tumors do not respond to endocrine agents or trastuzumab and can only be treated with chemotherapy. Fortunately, increasing evidence suggests that the triple-negative subgroup derives substantial and preferential benefit from chemotherapy. The Cancer and Leukemia Group B (CALGB)[6] recently reviewed data from 3 randomized trials: 8541, investigating escalating dose intensity; 9344, exploring the addition of paclitaxel to the doxorubicin and cyclophosphamide (AC) backbone; and 9741, studying the impact of dose density. A combined analysis of over 6600 patients treated on these studies, stratified by HR status, demonstrated greater reductions in risk of recurrence for the HR-negative subset, translating into larger absolute benefits in both disease-free and overall survival.
The neoadjuvant setting also provides an opportunity to determine in vivo tumor responses to chemotherapy. The National Breast and Bowel Project (NSABP) B27 trial[7] of neoadjuvant AC with neoadjuvant vs adjuvant taxane demonstrated a higher rate of pathologic complete response (pCR) in ER-negative rather than ER-positive tumors. Prospective analysis of outcomes after neoadjuvant chemotherapy stratified by molecular subtype has demonstrated that the "basal-like" group has a greater frequency of pCR compared with HR-positive/HER2-negative subgroups.[8,9]
At the 2007 SABCS, several abstracts supported these findings. Four studies[10-13] presented in poster format reported outcomes after exposure to neoadjuvant anthracycline ± taxane-containing regimens. In all 4 studies, pCR rates were significantly higher in the triple-negative subgroup compared with the HR-positive subgroups, with similarly high pCR rates in women with HER2-positive tumors.[10-12] Among women with triple-negative tumors, the pCR rates were 23% to 36%. For trials with longer-term follow-up, inferior outcomes were observed among patients in the triple-negative group, especially in those with residual disease at surgery.[13] Taken together, these outcomes demonstrate that not only is chemotherapy the primary choice of systemic therapy for triple-negative tumors, but it may also be a more efficacious choice.
With respect to the standard chemotherapy repertoire, some agents may be more effective than others in the treatment of triple-negative tumors. The newest chemotherapeutic agent available for treatment of metastatic breast cancer is ixabepilone, an epothilone analog. Epothilones bind tubulin, leading to stabilization of microtubules, cell cycle arrest, and subsequent apoptotic cell death; preclinical study has suggested activity in both taxane-sensitive and taxane-refractory tumors.[14] In the primary phase 3 study leading to US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval,[15] ixabepilone 40 mg/m2 every 3 weeks plus capecitabine 2000 mg/m2 were superior to capecitabine 2500 mg/m2 monotherapy in 752 patients with anthracycline- and taxane-pretreated disease. A subgroup analysis was performed in the 25% of patients with triple-negative disease from the phase 3 study. In a group of 187 patients with triple-negative disease,[16] response rate (RR) increased from 9% to 27% with the addition of ixabepilone to the capecitabine therapy, and progression-free survival (PFS) improved from 2.1 to 4.1 months (hazard ratio 0.68, 95% confidence interval 0.50-0.93). These relative improvements in RR and PFS were comparable to those seen in the study cohort as a whole, although the low RR of 9% with capecitabine monotherapy highlights the difficulty in treating this patient population. In the neoadjuvant setting, monotherapy with ixabepilone in patients with triple-negative tumors led to a pCR rate of 26%, comparable to that seen with other chemotherapeutics.[17] Overall, ixabepilone appears to have reasonable activity in the triple-negative population. If you have been offered neoadjuvant chemotherapy - before surgery - please consider this option at least you will know that it worked on your tumor....it is so much more scientific than me keeping my fingers crossed because they would not let me have neoadjuvant!
Love,
Connie
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NINASUZIE
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 12:59pm |
What an article-thank you! I keep reading about the "187 patient" study and this is another write up on others I have read. Could it be in "english"? I think we end up with MDs with TNBC...thanks for the study back up and your invaluable point of view. I have greatly appreciated your posts and sharing your own experienced journey...still gathering info. Thank you and hugs up north
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Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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Valkayri
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 1:57pm |
Suzie-
When I was diagnosed they originally said to have the surgery first and then chemo, but when all the info came back, TN and a second tumor they didn't give me a choice-started the chemo at 8:30 am THAT day right after my Dr.s appt. in fact! When my BRCA test came back postive too it reaffirmed that we had done the right thing. Plus...it was very reassuring to actually feel the lump shrink during the chemo.
And..I know this may sound a bit strange but I loved having the extra time with my boobs. Even though I was completely on board with the bilateral it helped me to truly come to terms with losing them.
Blessings,
Kara
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TNBC May 2008 @35
stage 2, grade 3
3.7 cm & under 1cm
BRCA2+
dose dense, neo-adjuvent
4AC& 4Taxotere
bilateral mast Oct.08
Reconstruction finished Nov 09
www.mishmashin.blogspot.com
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trip2
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 2:01pm |
Suzie,
http://www.cancernetwork.com/display/article/10165/1340727
I hope you find your decisions soon Suzie. There is a preferred cut off after diagnosis for receiving chemotherapy.
Best of luck in finding your answers.
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Stage 2 2003
Stage 1 2007
BRCA 1+
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NINASUZIE
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 2:07pm |
Hi Kara,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Yes, I think they got on board very quickly for your situation-good for you :=) And I completely understand "getting used to" things changing one at a time. I very much appreciate your sharing your journey-you sound strong! What if I may ask is a "grade 4"?
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Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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NINASUZIE
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 2:23pm |
Hi Pam,
I appreciate the articles, thank you. I tried to reread for tx outcome timeframes that are optimal for chemo and missed it. Is it in the articles? I read one article yesterday that spoke of OS based on timing of chemo from surgery as adjuvant tx with 8-12 weeks being optimal, I believe.
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Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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trip2
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 2:57pm |
No Suzie I don't believe that was in the article, just in my head.
Your numbers sound about right if I understand your sentence correctly.
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Stage 2 2003
Stage 1 2007
BRCA 1+
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JanetK
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 7:08pm |
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I have decided to do neoadjuvant chemo. I had my first one April 3, and will have my second on Friday. My onc and I both have noticed a shrinkage in my tumor already! Now, this may or may not happen to you, but I am happy with my choice. I am also doing the trial ,The National Breast and Bowel Project (NSABP) B40. Good luck with your decision and treatments. And remember that we are all with you on your journey. hugs and prayers, Janet
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TNBC feb 13,2009
2.6x 3.5
neoadjuvant chemo 8 rounds
Lumpectomy successful Oct 09
axillary node dissection Nov 09
still awaiting results
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NINASUZIE
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Posted: Apr 19 2009 at 7:51pm |
Janet,
Glad to hear the chemo is working for you. Why this first before surgery? I hope you do well and feel you're best these weeks and in between.
Did you have your nodes checked prior to chemo? Is that best? I hadn't thought about that issue. I might or may not have positive nodes...they aren't sure.
Again, it was to start treatment asap at this point and chemo was quicker.
Best to you too in the weeks to come. Thank you very much.
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Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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trip2
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Posted: Apr 20 2009 at 4:46am |
Janet that is wonderful to hear you have shrinkage already! Good going and keep it up.
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Stage 2 2003
Stage 1 2007
BRCA 1+
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ziggy0
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Posted: Apr 20 2009 at 4:36pm |
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Suzie--In addition to letting you see the chemo work, neoadjuvant therapy also allows you to see if the chemo does not work. It happens, and thus far there is no predicting it. My tumor responded to adriamycin/cytoxin to the point where after four courses it was hardly palpable, but with weekly Taxol the tumor was back in three weeks. Had the tumor been out, I would have continued with the weekly Taxol for the remaining eight weeks, utterly unaware that it was not working.
For the life of me I do not understand why neoadjuvant therapy is not very much more prevalent.
Remember that you may not have immediate shrinkage, but after the first couple of weeks you certainly should not have that scary feeling of growth and continued, tender hardness. With Taxol, I could actually feel my tumor do what I called 'activating'--it gave off growth signals. With effective chemo, these signals disappear.
-jackie-
Edited by ziggy0 - Apr 20 2009 at 4:40pm
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Dx IDC 8/08/2008
TNBC stg 2 grd 3
T1c N1 M0, Ki67 97%
Neoadjuvant A-C, Taxol (failed), gemzar/carboplatin
Lumpectomy 1/09, completed G/C 4/24/09
0/6 nodes positive
Radiation 5 wks
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NINASUZIE
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Posted: Apr 20 2009 at 5:38pm |
Jackie,
Amazing perspective...think this is good for the docs to know, heh? I think that is quite scientifically observational...and that you were able to change tx...do you think it helped change your outcome? To me, that's the goal.
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Suzie
**************
Dx: 1/09 Metaplastic TN IDC/3.5CM/DCIS/1.0;4/09 L mastectomy;6-11/09 Cytoxan/Taxotere X6;BRACA-; Recurrance 11/10 bone mets broke arm;Lung mets;rads X15; chemo/parp tbd 1/11
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JanetK
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Posted: Apr 22 2009 at 6:31am |
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I decided to chemo before surgery for two reasons. 1. To shrink the tumor as to be able to have a lumpectomy instead of a mastectomy. 2. I am in a clinical trial that includes Avastin. My onc says she has been doing this trial for 3 1/2 years now and has seen remarkable results. Good luck with your choices and lots of love and hugs. Janet
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TNBC feb 13,2009
2.6x 3.5
neoadjuvant chemo 8 rounds
Lumpectomy successful Oct 09
axillary node dissection Nov 09
still awaiting results
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ziggy0
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Posted: Apr 22 2009 at 3:14pm |
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Suzie--There is no doubt in my mind that switching away from Taxol has changed the outcome for the better. The G/C is dealing with any hidden tumor cells that it can get to (and that may not include the axillary lymph nodes so much, as most chemo is mostly confined to the blood and has a hard time getting into intracellular spaces). On the other hand, having the tumor return was not a good thing, and it prevented me from experiencing the pCR (pathologically complete response) that is the bearer of good prognoses in TNBC.
There is a test that they can do on tumor material--I don't have it in front of me but it really doesn't matter since they don't do it, but if they did, they could predict who responds to A/C and who responds to Taxol--there is evidence that in TN people there is somewhat of an inverse correlation, that if you respond to A/C you may not respond to Taxol and vice versa. This is from the mountainous amount of research my dear engineer husband did when I was first diagnosed, and I don't think he could lay his hand on it now. It is something to do with measurement of SKP-21, I think, in the tumor. Maybe somebody else can elaborate on this; if I should find the study, I will bring more information.
The point is that testing exists now that could better predict who will and will not respond to specific therapies. Why isn't more of this done?
-jackie-
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Dx IDC 8/08/2008
TNBC stg 2 grd 3
T1c N1 M0, Ki67 97%
Neoadjuvant A-C, Taxol (failed), gemzar/carboplatin
Lumpectomy 1/09, completed G/C 4/24/09
0/6 nodes positive
Radiation 5 wks
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mrenaejohnson
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Posted: Apr 23 2009 at 11:58am |
 Hi! to all,
Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. I am receiving neoadjuvant therapy. My oncologist thinks that this will be the best possible outcome for me. I started A/C on 3/20/09. I have chemo every other friday (Doctor wants bi-weekly instead of tri-weekly- says its more aggressive). I finish next friday with my A/C then move to taxotere for another 4 tx's. Hope this shrinks the sucker before I have surgery. I hate having this cancerous mass inside of me, but at the same time I understand why he is doing what he is doing. I feel this is in my best interest.
Let me know if any of you ladies out there have any advise for me since I am a newbie. I would love to hear from you.
I feel comfort in this website, knowing there are other women out there with this same type of tumor.
All the women in the breast cancer support groups all have triple positive and are all doing well with their tamoxifen and herceptin. I feel like a third wheel so to speak because I can't relate to their therapy like I can with you gals.
You are all in my thoughts, and prayers
Michelle
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ziggy0
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Posted: Apr 23 2009 at 4:40pm |
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Yes, it is hard to find other women in person who share the triple-negative dx. I have personally seen one, in the flesh, at Cancer Day at Anschutz Cancer Pavilion in Denver, and it was only by chance that we identified ourselves. She was a three-year, NED (no evidence of disease) survivor, so that was encouraging!
It is better to have invisible but responsive colleagues than none at all.
-jackie-
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Dx IDC 8/08/2008
TNBC stg 2 grd 3
T1c N1 M0, Ki67 97%
Neoadjuvant A-C, Taxol (failed), gemzar/carboplatin
Lumpectomy 1/09, completed G/C 4/24/09
0/6 nodes positive
Radiation 5 wks
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mrenaejohnson
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Posted: Apr 24 2009 at 7:20am |
Hi! to all,
I am undergoing A/C for four tx's with next friday being my last of the A/C. Then I will be going to taxotere for four tx's.
Does anyone know how many tx's of chemo till one starts to feel the tumor shrinking?
Like I mentioned above I have already had three tx's of A/C, and I thought that my lymph node was down and I got all excited. Come to find out on my last visit with the oncologist he said that he could still feel it and it was about 1cm in size. I'm not sure how big it was before I started chemo.
My breast tumor was 4.2cm, and I can't tell if there is any shrinking there either. I want to say yes, but I said yes to the lymph node and I was wrong.
Are there tests done throughout chemo or at the end of chemo to determine how well the chemo is going? I don't want to continue with chemo if this therapy isn't working. How does the doctor determine what is and isn't working for me?
If anyone has any insight into this I would love to hear from you. I am so scared in the fact that I am wondering if this is working at all for me or does my doctor need to take a different route. Maybe I am just being plain paranoid.
Thanks for all your help,
Edited by mrenaejohnson - Apr 24 2009 at 7:23am
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Cheranthia
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Posted: Apr 25 2009 at 7:36am |
Hi Michelle, It's very normal to worry and wonder how well chemo is working. I certainly did! There are lots of different regimens available, but yours is pretty standard for TNBC. Mine was exactly the same. My onc did not do any tests or scans while I was on chemo - just frequent manual exams. I suspected that it was getting softer and smaller by the time I finished A/C. My onc was encouraging, but very conservative in his judgment until after treatment. I think he was afraid I might not finish if I thought it
had done its job sooner. In reality, I was not going to do that because
chemo is the best weapon against TNBC. He did not declare it a success until I had my post-chemo MRI. By then, my tumor could not be found.  One of the main reasons to do neoadjuvant chemo is so doctors can monitor your reaction to it and make changes if necessary. I imagine that your onc is monitoring your response, even if he is not telling you much yet. Have you shared your concerns with your onc? You have every right to ask your questions. I kept a small spiral notebook with me at all times while in treatment. Every time a new question popped into my head, I wrote it down on a separate page, leaving room for the response below it. I took my notebook with me to every appointment and got my questions answered. Congratulations on being almost halfway through chemo! Personally, I found Taxotere much more tolerable than A/C. I hope that is also the case for you! Cherie
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ziggy0
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Posted: Apr 25 2009 at 3:48pm |
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Michelle--Yes, what Cherie says is true. Neoadjuvant therapy allows for adjustments to be made. They are sometimes necessary and would not (without testing that is not routinely done) be known about in the adjuvant setting.
My tumor was not noticeably softer until after the second course of AC; by the time I had had my four courses, the tumor was hardly to be felt. Then he started me on Taxol and by the third week the tumor was coming back fast. That told us that somehow my tumor was resistant to Taxol, a drug it had never been exposed to. That is the scary beauty of neoadjuvant therapy--you get in vivo results. We switched to another pair of drugs and after two courses of them the tumor was again responding by softening and shrinking, and at that point we had it out. Then I finished a remaining four courses of chemo to 'mop up' any errant tumor cells.
Have you ever known a woman with breast cancer who saw only a surgeon who cut out the tumor and told her nothing else was necessary as he had 'gotten it all'? That doesn't happen so much any more, but it happened to the mother of a friend, who died from the metastatic disease a few years back. Fortunately, more and more women, especially with this disease, are aware of the need for chemo in addition to surgery and radiation. All the better if the chemo comes first.
Don't hesitate to ask your doctor about whether your lymph node and tumor are shrinking. By now, you should be able to get some answers.
-jackie-
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Dx IDC 8/08/2008
TNBC stg 2 grd 3
T1c N1 M0, Ki67 97%
Neoadjuvant A-C, Taxol (failed), gemzar/carboplatin
Lumpectomy 1/09, completed G/C 4/24/09
0/6 nodes positive
Radiation 5 wks
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