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Recently diagnosed/Need help with radiation decisi

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DJW View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jan 09 2012 at 9:59pm
I was diagnosed with TNBC after left mastectomy in October 2011 following abnormal screening mammogram in August. First primary tumor Stg 1 N0 found on additional views September with biopsy 9/21, second tumor found on MRI prior to scheduled lumpectomy (not visible on initial mammogram 8/11) with 2nd biopsy 9/29/11 revealing ER/PR negative which turned out to be the TNBC (biopsy inadequate to do HER2 testing initially). In 1 week I went from "you have the lowest risk BC" to 2 primary tumors in same breast with 2nd being "poorly differentiated" and from lumpectomy to mastectomy with chemo Shocked. Got a second surgical opinion at another out-of-state academic medical center with breast care center. She concurred with first surgeon. Since there was no sign of lymph nodes on exam, ultrasound or MRI; I delayed surgery 2 weeks to have the chance for immediate reconstruction but decided based on my own research (I am a pediatric nurse practitioner with experience in pediatric oncology) to tell both surgeons that if there were positive LN on SN biopsy to delay reconstruction and instead insert expander. Turned out that TNBC tumor was Stg 2B N1 (1 of 9 positive nodes) but also with extranodal extension and lymphovascular invasion in area of that tumor (additional micromet in 2nd SN).
 
I started chemotherapy 11/17/11--standard TAC based on oncologist recommendation (supposedly positive national reputation) and have now completed 3/6 courses. The oncologist recommended against radiation but wouldn't discuss why. I went to see the radiation medicine physician to find out why (since surgeon at 2nd opinion breast center said they recommend radiation for any positive LN) and was surprized to hear her say that she would recommend radiation based on TNBC, extranodal extension of 1 positive lymph node and lymphovascular invasion. This was a shock since the week before this appt I had scheduled my reconstructive surgery for after chemo in May 2012. My husband doesn't want me to have radiation--he is worried about complications/secondary malignancy. I am leaning toward radiation even though I don't want it , don't want to delay my reconstuction but I want to be here to see my 2 beautiful teen daughters grow up Cry and get married, etc.
 
My current oncologist hasn't and won't answer the BIG questions so I have researched TNBC and radiation pros and cons myself. Luckily I came across this site and even though I never thought I'd do this--here I am. The information in the medical literature is depressing--thank God for my faith, everyone praying for me, and this site but I still want to make the best decision about radiation for me. I have great insurance but since it is an HMO (at academic med center) I had to pay for first 2nd opinion. I am changing oncologists in the next week or 2 before my next course of chemo (in the same group) and am strongly considering a 2nd opinion (self-pay) about radiation @ MD Anderson (recommended by my surgeon). Soooooooo, what does everyone think in their opinion? I really want to hear from women with early stage, only 1-3 positive nodes because that is the "gray area" according to the ASCO Guidelines Confused. Thanks so much in advance!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote overwhelmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 09 2012 at 10:39pm
DJW,
I am so sorry to that you had to find us, but it's good you did. This site has been a lifesaver for me since my diagnoisis in March 2010.  I believe I would have been considered a gray area in regards to radiation since I had no positive nodes.  A friend who has TNBC was diagnosed three years before me.  At that time it was necessary that three nodes be positive before radiation was recommended.  By the time I was diagnosed my onc from the same cancer center recommended radiation.  My SN had three microscopic cells, but the cells were under .20 mm, so the node was technically negative.  My tumor was large and difficult to measure.  I have lobular bc, so a large undefined tumor (acutally I had three of them, with the third found during an MRI, much as it happened with your MRI) isn't unusual.  But, the size was enough to get me a 2b stage. 
 
Following chemo I was referred to the rad onc.  I wasn't sure what she would recommend.  She was concerned about the technically negative node, along with the tumor size.  She not only did radiation, but she hit the clavical nodes and did a boost to the scar area.  She was aggressive because I had TNBC.  That's the approach I wanted.  I wanted to throw one more weapon at this disease.  I know there are issues with radiation, but since it lessened the possibility of recurrence I was all for it.  I want to live long enough to worry about a secondary cancer when I am 70.
 
When concerned that I would have to fight to get radiation (my onc never discouraged rads and actually referred me to a rad onc he knew would treat me aggressively because I was TNBC), I did some research.  I wanted to see what the TNBC oncs were recommending.  I came across information from Lisa Carey from UNC.  She recommends chemo and radiation with TNBC regardless of stage, node involvment and tumor size.  I figured if that's what she was recommending that was what I needed to fight for.  Thankfully, I never had to fight.  I do believe that a recent study supports rads for TNBC, and actually showed that lumpectomy with rads showed better results than mastecomy without rads.  They didn't look at those of us with mastectomy and rads, but that lumpectomy with rads beats out a more radical surgery w/o rads is enough for me to think that radiation is a necessary treatment for TNBC.  Of course, I am no doctor, so in the end, it is just my opinion.
 
Radiation does make reconstruction more difficult.  I had delayed latissimus dorsi flap reconstruction.  It wasn't easy, but I am now looking back on it.  I didn't have the tissue expanders put in at the time of mastecomy because I didn't know if I would opt for reconstruction.  But, I came to a point where I needed to do it.  None of this is easy.  You have to make the choice of which direction you want to take.  If I had it to do over, I would alter the chemo I did.  I went with a clinical trial because Avastin was hoped to be the Herceptin for TNBC.  Within a couple of months there were many questions surrounding Avastin. If I had it to do over I wouldn't have gone the route I did, so I am very thankful that the radiaiton was aggressive.  I may have issues in the future because I did have radiation, but I would prefer those issues to a recurrence.
 
Good luck with your decision.  It is a personal one, and it's not easy.
 
Lori
DX ILC TNBC 3/10 at 50, Stage IIb; Grade 3; 5.1 to 7 cm,SNB neg;TC-6 rnds, 30 rads, Avastin-18 rnds, BRAC 1&2-
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Lee21 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2012 at 5:54am
I posted elsewhere on the forum links to articles examining the role of RT in TNBC; Judy may remember where, I am off to the airport now so am unable to do so.   Bottom line, for TNBC, there may be a role for RT -- although the studies are retrospective in nature.
12/9/11 @59,IDC,grade3, TNBC,3cm(MRI),SLNB0,stage IIA, BRCA1 variant
1/30/12 DD AC-T, 6/7/12 Lumpectomy, ypT1b(0.8 cm), 7/9/12 Rads x 30
11/9/12, clinical trial cisplatin/rucaparib, cisplatin-only arm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 123Donna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 10 2012 at 8:06am
DJW,

Hello and welcome to our forum, but sorry you have a reason to be here.  I think getting a second opinion about radiation at MD Anderson is an excellent idea.  I went there for that exact reason.  There is another thread on this forum talking about a study on radiation for high risk women.  Here's the link:

Donna
DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09)
11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grateful for today Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2012 at 3:11am
DJW,

Lots of positive and caring thoughts to you as you research and decide on the treatment plan
best for you.
It sounds like you already know a lot.   Just disregard anything that is a repeat below.

Realize this is too much info for one reading......thought it better to have the info in one post
and you could came back to it.

When reading about TNBC, try to remember what many articles leave out.........which is hard
to do when one sees words like aggressive so often.   From reading, what I understand is that
WHEN TNBC relapse occurs it tends to occur earlier especially years 1-3 years (compared
to ER + breast cancer). Once a patient with a history of TNBC reaches 5 years (some say 5-7-8 years)
the risk of recurrence is actually LESS for TNBC then for ER+Breast Cancer. The majority of TNBC
patients survive.
When reading articles, remember many articles do not separate the information for TNBC versus
ER + breast cancer.   Many articles are based on PRIOR chemo/treatment plans. Note that
some articles/studies are based on very small samples. Fortunately, there is much research on
TNBC being done now (for information that was needed yesterday.)

Realize that many newly diagnosed TNBC use the TNBC forums.   Many TNBC who have
recurrence use the forums. There are many, many survivors out there who have passed the
3 and 5 year mark and are too busy to post!
There are a few survivors forum links:      
   
http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/any-10-year-survivors-out-there_topic9398_post94574.html?KW=survivors#94574">http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/survivors-needed_topic8221.html(/URL">

http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/any-10-year-survivors-out-there_topic9398_post94574.html?KW=survivors#94574
              (and there may be others)



Donna's reference above is important:
http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/radiation-rni_topic8602.html?KW=Radiation MA.20 study.
Breast Cancer: RNI Prolongs Disease-free Survival for Women with One to Three Involved Nodes
Be sure to notice the last sentences:
"Dr. Buchholz (MD Anderson) acknowledged the value of RNI, but deemed that the population of “all women with one to three positive nodes” is a HETEROGENEOUS group with different risks for relapse, so accrual of additional data to facilitate subanalyses, especially of the group of patients who have low risk for residual regional disease, is necessary before RNI should be made a general recommendation."

Another reference to the same MA.20 Study:
http://www.oncolink.org/conferences/article.cfm?id=2148
****note the following from this reference:
There are several interesting questions that this trial does not completely answer:
Is it necessary to radiate the IMNs? In this trial, all patients received radiation to the IMNs, so it is reasonable to assert that this is the new standard of care. Nevertheless, only 1 patient treated with WBI alone relapsed in the IMNs, a finding consistent with recurrence patterns found in other studies conducted in the modern era. IMN treatment may be associated with increased radiation dose to heart and lung, which may be clinically significant as documented in this study by increased pneumonitis risk. The question of IMN radiotherapy remains unanswered at this point, and is an issue that requires further directed study.
Patients with 1-3 + nodes represent a heterogeneous group, with some patients having only microscopic disease in one node – should all of these women receive RNI? Recent data from the Z11 trial, in which patients did not receive RNI or completion axillary dissection after detection of 1-2 positive sentinel lymph nodes, suggests that in patients with low volume axillary disease, WBI alone may suffice. Further study is necessary to determine whether low risk 1-3 + node women will benefit from RNI.

You will want to find some articles on the different types of radiation like IMRT.
From the Fox Chase Cancer Center:
http://www.fccc.edu/cancer/types/breast/treatment/radiation/index.html

*******From above articles, it is clear one needs expert radiation oncology consult(s) re:
                  pros and cons of radiation.
                  Types of radiation therapy.
                  For left sided breast cancer: best protocol. best machine.
                                                                      best heart/lung protection AND best breast cancer
                                                                                  treatment result   
                                                                      get opinions on how best to protect the heart *****

Lee mentioned that she had posted articles on radiation therapy:
See about 10th post on page 1 of forum:
     http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/people-who-did-not-respond-to-act_topic8990.html

It is recognized and acknowledged that each individual situation needs an individual plan of care
by one's treatment MD's. This was my situation and my plan since you asked:
Neoadjuvant dose dense AC q 2 weeks x4 and Taxol q 2 weeks x4. (complete clinical response)
Unilateral right mastectomy with ALND (axillary lymph node dissection)
Path: ypT1cN1a
Radiation x 29 treatment days.
    Right chest wall. Scar bolus every other treatment day.
        Adjacent lymph nodes/high tangential field.      (not full axillary field due to ALND)
        (Internal mammary nodes field not included)
   Right supraclavicular lymph nodes area.
(My radiation treatment plan was done/given at a comprehensive cancer center)

If you have any questions on the above, please post them and I will try to answer.........
      or other members may be able to answer.
If any one finds any thing in above that is not correct, please post.

With caring and positive thoughts,

Grateful for today................Judy

-------------------------------

DJW,

Again, you may already know. Would rather repeat then assume.
BRCA testing and VItamin D information is important for TNBC.

Consider seeing a certified genetics counselor re: BRCA testing.
See forum: http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/very-important-news-re-tnbc-brca-testing_topic8458.html?KW=BRCA

If you already know you have a good Vitamin D3 level, great.
If you do not have a current/recent Vitamin D3 level, you may want to discuss having the
    level checked with your MD.
If you Vitamin D3 level turns out to be low, discuss plan with MD to bring level up.
See forum:   http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/vitamin-d3_topic5338.html

Lee posted some great TNBC/breast cancer related articles on forum:
     http://forum.tnbcfoundation.org/open-access-articles-on-tnbc_topic9440.html

From TNBC website-> resources > download>
    New Guide on TNBC
             http://www.tnbcfoundation.org/tnbcguide.htm
    State of the Art Treatment
             http://www.tnbcfoundation.org/State-of-the-Art%20Treatment%20for%20TNBC.pdf

Judy



Edited by Grateful for today - Jan 11 2012 at 4:09am
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Lee21 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2012 at 11:41am
I found my previous post and I have put a copy in the open access article forum under new members.
12/9/11 @59,IDC,grade3, TNBC,3cm(MRI),SLNB0,stage IIA, BRCA1 variant
1/30/12 DD AC-T, 6/7/12 Lumpectomy, ypT1b(0.8 cm), 7/9/12 Rads x 30
11/9/12, clinical trial cisplatin/rucaparib, cisplatin-only arm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 123Donna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 11 2012 at 11:43am
Regarding radiation therapy and especially radiation on the left side, you might want to investigate Tomotherapy Computer Guided IMRT (Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy).

DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09)
11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DJW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 19 2012 at 10:48pm
Thanks for all of the information.
1) I have been following my Vitamin D level for years and am on supplements for low level years ago, with normal level in September.
2) I am still trying to reach MD Anderson to talk to an RN at least to find out some details and why such a large minimal financial committment of $12,000 when I only want a radiation recommentation. I know they will want to re-read my surgical biopsy and scans. Thinking they are figuring I want a complete consult? As mentioned in first post, my insurance is an HMO so won't pay for me to go anywhere else (surgeon is writing me a letter but not much hope) so I am self-pay if I go anywhere else....
3) Have appt with cardiologist next week for his input regarding radiation on left side after Adriamycin. Will read up on the Tomotherapy Guided IMRT
4) There is actually a study published July 2011 from Canada that recommended radiation and chemotherapy as the new standard of care for TNBC. It was done in women with Stg1-2 N0 and compared lumpectomy with radiation to MRM without rads and with MRM with radiation specifically for women with TNBC. Lumpectomy had best results followed by MRM with rads then MRM without rads. Since it was a large sample group, it seemed like a quality study.
 
In post by Grateful for Today: what is RNI (figured out the other acronyms/abbreviations)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 123Donna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 19 2012 at 11:05pm
RNI = Regional Node Irradiation.< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">
DX IDC TNBC 6/09 age 49, Stage 1,Grade 3, 1.5cm,0/5Nodes,KI-67 48%,BRCA-,6/09bi-mx, recon, T/C X4(9/09)
11/10 Recur IM node, Gem,Carb,Iniparib 12/10,MRI NED 2/11,IMRT Radsx40,CT NED11/13,MRI NED3/15

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AlohaGirl Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 20 2012 at 12:36am
Hello DJW:

It appears I am in a similar situation as you. I just completed my TAC X6 on 1/9. I previously had a mastectomy on 9/1/11, no node involvement. I had 2 rad oncs tell me a different story. I met with a panel of MDs for a 2nd opinion in Dec. , including a rad onc., and they recommended radiation bc of the aggressive nature of TNBC. The rad onc. MD I met with yesterday said my clinical scenario did not warrant rad tx bc I had a mastectomy, tumor size was less than 5cm, no node involvement. I even referred to the Canadian study you mentioned and she advised me it was not the standard of practice. 

Thanks to Steve's recommendation, I have called Dr. Barbara L. Fowble at UCSF Medical Center this morning and was quoted a rad onc. consultation fee of $639-$1052 (just in case my insurance will not cover for a 2nd opinion). I figured this is reasonable if my insurance does not pay.

Please feel free to PM me if you require additional info. Wishing you the best in your chemo tx and 2nd opinion.

Warm regards,
D
______________________________________________________________________________
Dx 8/11 T2N0 IDC/DCIS TNBC; 9/11 Lt. mastectomy, SLN neg 0/3; 9/11-1/9/12 TAC x6; BRCA results pending
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